Blending Fact & Fiction: Paul & Yuangrat Wedel Return to Discuss Their Novels Set in 1900s Siam Part 2 [S7.E26]

Greg (00:00:21) - On part two of two. We welcome back Paul and Yung Rat Fidel to talk about their historical fiction novel set in southern Thailand.

Ed (00:00:28) - So if you're interested in good stories told well and the dramatic changes that took place in Thailand during the turn of the 20th century, you'll love this episode of the Bangkok Podcast.

Greg (00:00:55) - Sawatdee Khrap! And welcome to the Bangkok Podcast. My name is Greg Jorgensen, a Canadian who came to Thailand in 2001 after an accident involving a plate of poutine, a Timmy's double double and an ice skating accident on the Rideau Canal made me a wanted man in four provinces and two territories.

Ed (00:01:11) - Were you speaking English there?

Greg (00:01:13) - I was speaking Canadian.

Ed (00:01:14) - Close enough.

Ed (00:01:14) - Yeah. I'm like, yeah, I don't even understand half of what that what that meant. But. But I feel bad for you. Thanks, man. And I am Ed Knuth an American who came to Thailand on a one year teaching contract to 23 years ago. Fell in love with motocy guys being available anytime, anywhere on a moment's notice. So I never left.

Greg (00:01:33) - Yeah, when you stand there for more than a couple of minutes, when you're used to just sort.

Ed (00:01:36) - Of, oh, it's walking.

Greg (00:01:38) - Right into one.

Ed (00:01:38) - It's an injustice I feel now. I'm so used to them being available everywhere that if I, if I have to wait five minutes, I'm, I'm ready to file a petition with, like, the Human Rights Commission.

Greg (00:01:49) - This is outrageous.

Ed (00:01:50) - This is.

Greg (00:01:51) - Outrageous. I think I.

Greg (00:01:53) - You're like the elephant man. I am not an animal.

Ed (00:01:57) - I am being horribly mistreated. We want to give a big thanks to all of our patrons who support the show.

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Greg (00:03:08) - That's right. And don't forget, if you listen to us on Spotify, you can now hear all the bonus shows there as well. If you're a patron, simply link your Patreon account to your Spotify account and add our new feed titled Bangkok Podcast Badass Patrons only to hear the regular and bonus shows in the same place. All right, on part two of two, we continue our discussion with authors Paul and Jung Rat Waddell. You might remember them from season six, episode 31, when they discussed their book Radical Thought Time, Mind, but they are back to talk about their new book, or should I say books. In 2021, they released beads on a string a novel of ambition, revenge, love and tragedy that takes place in southern Thailand during the tumultuous turn of the 20th century. And just recently, they released part two of the trilogy titled Dark Karma, that continues their complex tale that mixes fiction with historical characters in real life locations. We're really happy to have them back on the show to talk about how the story took shape and the research they did to bring their characters to life.

Greg (00:04:00) - It's always great to talk to these guys because they have so much knowledge about Thai culture and history. So here is part two of our chat with Paul and Jung Rat Waddell. Another, another really surprising element of this book as I'm going along and just just getting to the part. I assume you're talking about Patty and where he's doing some stuff, and it seems to me to be getting into sort of some, some espionage almost work, which I wasn't expecting, but it's really interesting. Yeah.

Ed (00:04:35) - You're making me want to read the book, for sure.

Paul (00:04:38) - But that's the purpose.

Ed (00:04:40) - Do you do the Chinese, see themselves as Buddhists the same way that ties to. Or is there some kind of difference between the Thai Buddhists and the Chinese immigrants, or the Chinese? Just business people who are not that religious.

Yuangrat (00:04:53) - Yeah. Buddhism, we have two branches is Mahayana ottowa and Indiana. Indiana is Indiana is Theravada and Yana, which is, covered Japan, China and Vietnam.

Yuangrat (00:05:12) - So there are differences. The Theravada Buddhism in Thailand is like Burma that we believe that there's only the Buddha who is just a normal people, you know, normal person that want like a regular, like a teacher, but in Mahayana. They see the Chinese to see the Buddha had many, many lives. So they worship a lot of Buddhists from last life, like being a warrior or the end or whatever. So there's not much different about about the region because the practicality practice of the Buddhism. Rich of both. Tensions were not not conflict to each other. Understood why in Malay. They are strong. They strongly believe in the in Allah.

Yuangrat (00:06:01) - Allah. No one else. Even the Buddha. They claim that he's the disciple of the Allah. I see, so they only want one God and we don't believe in God, right. So there's a lot of conflict. That's why the Malay in the South I'm, you know, I'm from Surat and I live in Palatka, right.

Yuangrat (00:06:20) - Meaning the market of the Muslim. Yeah. So, although we have a lot of conflicts in my time anyway, in national conflict or whatever, but as the people, we don't have any conflicts, but we are people. And they. I have very close friends who are Malay, and I just don't eat pork when he's around.

Yuangrat (00:06:43) - We we associate very much. Very good.

Greg (00:06:46) - Hey, I'll go out and have a vegetarian meal with Ed. Sometimes I'll sacrifice.

Paul (00:06:50) - Yeah.

Ed (00:06:52) - Okay. I don't want to. I'm going to bring this up. I know this might play into some stereotypes, but I have this image of the Chinese being business people more than maybe the traditional Thais. So does that make the Chinese less religious, do you think, or are they still religious in their own way? Well.

Greg (00:07:10) - I think.

Paul (00:07:10) - Both.

Greg (00:07:11) - And depending on the person.

Paul (00:07:13) - And, we have Chinese characters that are very business oriented, and we have one character who becomes a very devout, Buddhist monk and looks back to try to the original teachings of the Buddha, tries to purify what he sees as teachings that have gotten, too much involved with Hindu thinking or with animist thinking, and tries to restore what he sees as original Buddhism.

Paul (00:07:45) - And that's one of the central conflicts in book two. and the understanding of karma is something that there are differences about, that we deal with. And the characters, in book two, deal with some difficult times.

Greg (00:08:02) - Now, you just mentioned something interesting I wanted to I have in my notes here, and it was the word khaek. Now, it's funny because among farang circles and sometimes, there's discussion of whether the word farang is offensive or not. And I tend to think it's basically it's context, like I don't find it offensive at all. But if someone uses it like, oh, you stupid farang, then of course it's like, oh, that, that's offensive. One of the first, when at my very first night in, in Bangkok in 2001, I stayed on Silom, right across from what I was told was what? And for those listening who don't know, khaek is what I was told is the sort of, slang term, colloquial term for Indian. But in the years since I've, I've learned that it's much more complex than that.

Greg (00:08:49) - And some people I've, I've been told that some people still find it offensive. Other people are fine with it. Can you talk about that word? And what it means.

Yuangrat (00:08:58) - Nowadays has three meanings. historically, khaek is the Malay from the south only. Right. But now we have the Hindus migrate to Bangkok or in the south. We also call khaek the Tamil. You have the khaek also. And the community have very unique career. Use the money moneylender and very very, very strict. And we call we have a type of saying that if the khaek Hindu walk with the dog, we kill the khaek first.

Greg (00:09:35) - Oh Jesus.

Yuangrat (00:09:37) - That's supposed to be a greeting.

Ed (00:09:38) - It's not supposed to be a greedy moneylender.

Yuangrat (00:09:40) - We had them. But the khaek in the south, in the. In the South, we only call them khaek, not. Because of hatred, because they are different. They are they just the Malay? Because not all Malay.

Ed (00:09:51) - Not negative word.

Yuangrat (00:09:52) - You know, just called.

Yuangrat (00:09:54) - But not sure.

Yuangrat (00:09:55) - In that that time. Well, and then nowadays we have the word khaek, even though when the European when the Americans migrate to Thailand khaek means visitor.

Paul (00:10:07) - Yeah that's the literal translation.

Yuangrat (00:10:09) - And then is khaek. So you thought we mean to like visitor.

Ed (00:10:12) - You mean you're saying literally it just means visitor.

Yuangrat (00:10:14) - Visitors. Yeah. But no one is correct. You know, because you are not a native. And according to Thai culture, you have to be hospitalized. Hospitalized to the khaek. See?

Greg (00:10:26) - Okay. See every friend you have to.

Yuangrat (00:10:27) - Show them, like.

Yuangrat (00:10:28) - Welcome the hospital hospitality. So you have to give the water and in the tent and say okay.

Paul (00:10:36) - For Thais it meant somebody who's different.

Yuangrat (00:10:38) - Yeah, he's different.

Paul (00:10:39) - And this was really resented by the Malays. Yeah. Because they feel like they were here before the time.

Paul (00:10:47) - Thais who are the khaek. Right. Interesting. And I think it's, it's, seen as a pejorative.

Yuangrat (00:10:54) - And the thing that is, you know, like everywhere in the world, we also prejudice.

Yuangrat (00:11:00) - Sure. Yeah, sure.

Yuangrat (00:11:01) - Of course too. So we call like check. We call the Chinese check. Which the Chinese headed check, meaning Chinese, who come to spit.

Yuangrat (00:11:11) - Out the word.

Paul (00:11:11) - That was the word we translated in the first book is chink.

Greg (00:11:15) - Yeah, okay, I see.

Paul (00:11:15) - Pretty, equivalent in terms of feeling. It's so.

Greg (00:11:22) - Funny. It's such a universal constant. You know, I just watched a comedian special last night, this comedian named Dez Bishop, and he was talking. He he spent years in China and he learned how to speak Chinese. And he lives in New York. And he says he was talking to the audience and he goes, you know, the Chinese people, the word for for white person is, is gwailow. And he says, even in New York, the Chinese people still call the people who live here gwailow.

Greg (00:11:45) - And I'm talking to them in Chinese. I'm like, you're the gwailow. You're the foreigner, right?

Yuangrat (00:11:48) - Right, right.

Paul (00:11:49) - Well, I think translate directly is white ghost.

Greg (00:11:54) - I'm not sure my Chinese is rusty. Right. But it's interesting like that. These things, these these identities and these words, and they change over time and they it's it's never going to go away.

Paul (00:12:04) - I think, khaek was used officially back until the Longhorns time. But since then, I think the Thai official usage avoids it.

Ed (00:12:15) - Oh, I see it's more informal now. I have a question for you too. When I used to teach a course, at my university in American immigration, immigration in the US, and of course, part of the American identity is we are taught we are a nation of immigrants. Basic American thing. Every American kid learns us. We are a nation of immigrants. And, I would say that's not how Thai people define. Thailand. But the more I learn, like now, I'm learning more about the South.

Ed (00:12:49) - I feel like Thailand is a nation of immigrants too. Would you guys agree? I mean, it's much more mixed than I think, but it's not part of the official Thai identity. Like the Thai government never says we are a nation of immigrants. No, no, no, but but Thailand is not a.

Yuangrat (00:13:05) - Unified, like I said.

Ed (00:13:06) - But actually but.

Yuangrat (00:13:07) - There are immigrants.

Yuangrat (00:13:08) - Good. Same religion. Right.

Paul (00:13:09) - And actually the Thai people migrated. Yeah. Migrated from southern China, right? how true that is. I think there's some really academic differences about it. But, the conception is that it's a unified, unified by respect for the royal family, by the language and by certain customs. In fact, it's much more complicated.

Ed (00:13:39) - Ethnically and racially. It seems to be more mixed than people. No one ever talks about that much, or at least Thai people don't seem to talk about it. But it's much just just you talking about the main influence.

Ed (00:13:50) - I mean, I was aware I was aware of the mounds, but, it my students never talk about it. I'm sure some of them have mom's blood or relative.

Paul (00:14:00) - Former prime minister. And I was, half man. Yeah. some of the Thai kings had Chinese blood.

Greg (00:14:09) - you also see it in Buddhism to write in Thai Buddhism is is animism. And it's, it's Hindu.

Yuangrat (00:14:15) - Popular Buddhism.

Greg (00:14:16) - Right. But but that's not talked about so often. It's just Buddhism, Thai Buddhism, you know.

Paul (00:14:21) - Well, we talk about it. Yes. Write a book too. Looks at, the pushback against animism. Right, right. Or maybe some people say the, the growth of animism. and we have characters that believe in amulets and, and tattoos and, and things to in an uncertain world. Where do you find protection?

Yuangrat (00:14:44) - Yeah, exactly.

Yuangrat (00:14:45) - And even this belief of the popular Buddhism has been on for, well, on and on since 20 years, that we still believe the same, because the Thai in general believed that the Hinduism is Buddhism.

Yuangrat (00:15:02) - We have the story saying because the Hinduism spread through Thailand maybe 100 years before Buddhism from the south, the town of Dharma. So the, the Brahmin, you know, used to bow to and then spread a Buddhist belief. And then later on when the, when the Buddhist monks came, the time people just assume this is the same thing. Oh, I see, so they integrate very well. And, and because Buddhism is so I would say very abstract, the real teaching of Buddhism, that everything has to be mine, you know, the hell and the and the heaven is in your mind, where in Hinduism is very actually happen, you know, when you die, you go. So they integrate very well and we, we have this thought in saying that the Hinduism and Buddhism is like a man and a woman. When the man, the woman by the thigh. People beautiful woman sit in a bench. Hindus came and they wooing the woman called cross. And the woman fell off the bench.

Yuangrat (00:16:04) - The Hindu conquered. I believe you say so. Everyone still mistaken it that this is Buddhist. But I mean people. Now, even now we have the character, the monk, which takes after the people who died already will try to reform Buddhism into the original way.

Greg (00:16:24) - Well, every time I think I'm starting to get it figured out, it's the five new layers.

Ed (00:16:28) - Or for me, it's such a fascinating mix. I mean, Thai, Thai culture, it's just there's so many different sources of it, and it really is a melting pot. But that's not how people.

Greg (00:16:39) - Yeah, that's that's a really interesting insight.

Ed (00:16:40) - Yeah. Like in America, that's it's a melting pot. Everyone says that. But people don't say that about Thailand.

Paul (00:16:45) - Right. That's right. I think and that's one of the things where trying to, by implication, show in the books that in fact, there are a mixture of ethnicities, cultures, religions that are part of Thailand. And this overarching national story that, Thai rulers at least tell themselves is not not completely accurate.

Paul (00:17:13) - Right.

Greg (00:17:14) - You you mentioned just briefly the protection of amulets and things like that. And there's one, passage here that I highlighted and, it's one of the aforementioned horny ones. So I'll give you the I'll give you the, the the pleasure of reading this here. Just read that out for us and we can talk a little bit about this.

Paul (00:17:30) - Okay. in this case, ploy, is still quite a young woman, and she's concerned about her mother, who, is worried that her husband ploys. Father is taking a minor wife. Right. And they're not having sex as much. And she overhears a conversation. Ploy pulled back and listened. They were talking about sex, something her mother had always refused to discuss with her. What do I do with this? Mother said, holding up a small glass vial of dark brown liquid. It's seal wrapped in red thread. That is the other part of my service, the old woman said. This is necromantic oil, rare and powerful. It is diffused from the bodily fluids of a woman who died in childbirth.

Paul (00:18:29) - The oil was extracted from the chin of the deceased. The only way to ensure potency. Mother held up the tiny bottle to the lamplight. Matcham, listen carefully, the woman said. Use your right hand to apply the oil above your eyebrows, smearing it on your skin with the middle finger, and that will make him love me. Desire me again. To be absolutely sure. Put three drops of the oil on your middle finger when he lies with you. Stroke his lingam with that finger from the base to the tip and nothing can stop him from loving you.

Greg (00:19:11) - Pretty intense stuff. You know, and again, we were talking earlier about how Thailand is going through this massive change. And that included, you know, the character of Suicide and Nurse. And she's really attracted by these new Western theories of medicine and things like that. So there's a lot of flux there. but this almost strikes me almost like voodoo, you know. can you talk a little bit about Thai traditional medicine at that time and what it was like? And.

Greg (00:19:36) - Well, I think some of this stuff.

Paul (00:19:38) - Differentiate herbal medicine from things like this. Okay.

Greg (00:19:42) - Yeah. It's more.

Yuangrat (00:19:43) - Animal.

Ed (00:19:44) - Animistic or.

Yuangrat (00:19:44) - Magical. and.

Paul (00:19:46) - So herbal medicine has some basis, in fact, that, over the years, people find what.

Greg (00:19:53) - Works. Sure. Yeah.

Paul (00:19:54) - Okay. Okay. the superstition things. Something else.

Yuangrat (00:19:58) - Not. Yeah. This was this is is that how the local the villagers believe in those days, for example, they don't have any medicine like modern medicine that can cure something. Like, some people have high fever and went crazy, you know, yelling. And so they think that that person is, invested in, invested by the, in their invested by the cost. So they have no reason so that how animism came. Right. And they saw something that is very strange, like the big trees. And they're afraid of the trees. They put the they worship them. They put the, the candlestick into just from fear. It's like a, you know, anthropological point of view.

Yuangrat (00:20:47) - The people are afraid of something. They worship them just to make them safe, to touch people like that. Still, now you hear the story. Some people found a big snake, and they kept it in worship.

Yuangrat (00:21:01) - Right. So it's just just like that. But the real Buddhism is not like that. But then come to talk about herbal medicine, it's something completely different. My father was the herbal doctor. The monk like crap.

Yuangrat (00:21:16) - So that's what my father. But your father.

Greg (00:21:19) - You still see this stuff? To a degree. You still.

Greg (00:21:23) - The tattoos and the magical amulets. And every once in a while, there will be. There will be, like, one special amulet that suddenly is really popular.

Paul (00:21:31) - This is, you know, a part of that mix of different beliefs, different cultures, different ethnicities, the political challenges. And as I think you mentioned in the introduction, very rapid technological change during the period of these two books, Thailand went from having no hospitals to having scientifically established medical practices.

Paul (00:21:59) - telegraph, telephone, steam trains all came, to Thailand in that period. You had the railway line was completed, completed between the South and Bangkok. sailing ships were pushed aside by steamships and just so much change happening and and particularly in book two, you see the impact of World War one, where Thai soldiers went to France to fight. Yeah. And, brought back the Spanish flu.

Yuangrat (00:22:36) - Yeah. Oh, nice. Yes.

Greg (00:22:38) - Has there ever been a time in Thailand that went through as much rapid and wide ranging changes? This time of the book's taken take place.

Ed (00:22:46) - In it has to be the most changed just because in I feel the more I read, I feel that there was about 50 years where just there was an insane development. Yeah.

Yuangrat (00:22:56) - I think that's right.

Yuangrat (00:22:58) - Yeah, he is very modernized, and he figured out that if we don't if we hadn't developed ourself to be as eco as the witness, we would be colonized just like the Burmese and the Vietnam and Cambodia. The example is that, I read my history book that the British want to colonize Vietnam or Burma because they stick to the tradition.

Yuangrat (00:23:23) - They ask this British version to bond and even crawl, you know.

Greg (00:23:28) - Oh, right, right, right.

Yuangrat (00:23:29) - To meet them. Roger that. Hiking. Figured out. Well, that's why they, you know, we ought to be modernized so that the king didn't mind. We have the picture of the French envoys who came to visit attacking. And they can walk, stand behind the king and talk equally. That goes Back to the time, a hundred years ago.

Paul (00:23:50) - But also King long gone had, Western teachers. He never went to the West, but he sent all his sons to Britain, France, Germany and Russia.

Greg (00:24:03) - So, again, that practicality of of not forcing something through because they realize that would probably have negative repercussions.

Yuangrat (00:24:09) - Yeah.

Paul (00:24:09) - Even Rama for, who was brought up in a very traditional time way, learned English. Sure. And, communicated with, by letter writing with the Western powers and, had friends among the, Christians who came to, replace Buddhism unsuccessfully.

Paul (00:24:38) - Sure.

Greg (00:24:38) - We saw it. I just I just finished the, the really great show, Shogun, the remake of Shogun.

Yuangrat (00:24:44) - Yeah.

Greg (00:24:44) - Which was we saw it. We saw that similar thing happened in Japan. Japan was like, that's it. No foreigners allowed. And they just closed the whole country down for a hundred years.

Yuangrat (00:24:51) - Yeah, or however we open up. That's right.

Ed (00:24:53) - You're right. When a different.

Yuangrat (00:24:55) - Japanese came here. Period. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yamaha. The one who came to. Yeah. To a Japanese.

Yuangrat (00:25:04) - Soldiers headed by a lot of foreign advisors to help us develop a country.

Paul (00:25:09) - And if you you notice the one of the most powerful non-royal families in Thailand is the black family.

Yuangrat (00:25:18) - Yeah. for many.

Paul (00:25:19) - Years, yeah, was as powerful as the king. And where did they come from?

Greg (00:25:24) - They're from Iran.

Yuangrat (00:25:25) - Are they from Persian? Well.

Greg (00:25:28) - Yeah.

Ed (00:25:29) - But they're immigrants.

Yuangrat (00:25:30) - Yeah. That's right.

Ed (00:25:32) - So why don't we return to your novels? So are you saying you have a fourth one in the in the planning stages?

Paul (00:25:39) - First, let us finish book three.

Ed (00:25:41) - So are you right? You're writing book three now. Is that correct? Yes. Oh, interesting.

Paul (00:25:45) - We have an outline and we have lots of research, a lot. This will cover the period, pretty much from 1922 to 1933. Again a period. What were the earlier period was economic, social change. This is where the political change really hits home and the absolute monarchy is overthrown.

Yuangrat (00:26:11) - Yeah.

Ed (00:26:12) - Exciting.

Greg (00:26:12) - When we we did our first show on your, on your previous book Radical Thought Thai mind, you talked about working together as a married couple and, and things like this. So how do you guys set the outline of the book. Do you just sit down and talk about where you want the characters to go and what the conclusion should.

Yuangrat (00:26:27) - Be with.

Yuangrat (00:26:28) - This book, this current book.

Greg (00:26:29) - Both of them, the first one and the second one, the third one.

Paul (00:26:32) - Well, as you've heard, a lot of the characters are based on young Roth's family. So she was the one who told me over many years, all about her family stories and those kind of inspired us for those particular characters.

Paul (00:26:49) - And then, we researched the period together. she's much better at the Thai language sources than I am, but, we decide what we're going to research and look for documents.

Yuangrat (00:27:04) - And so we went.

Yuangrat (00:27:05) - To the National Archives to read the old newspaper. Oh, it's very interesting because they use the hand to, y'know, and and we did a lot of research. We went to talk to the experts in the South, talked to the professors and talked about and visit places like Bukit we, we visit the one of the youngest houses.

Paul (00:27:26) - The secret society.

Ed (00:27:28) - Yeah. Oh, wow.

Yuangrat (00:27:29) - So we talk about how they run, how they ran. So we do.

Yuangrat (00:27:32) - The research.

Paul (00:27:33) - Together. And I lived in Penang for two years. so a lot of the scenes are from my memories. so we do the research together. The characters pretty much start out with the outlines of young rats, family. but then I do most of the writing, and then she looks at it and tells me, pretty much where I've gone wrong in either Thai culture.

Yuangrat (00:28:06) - I believe, or beliefs.

Paul (00:28:08) - Buddhism, or on my female characters.

Yuangrat (00:28:14) - Yeah.

Paul (00:28:14) - So that's her areas of expertise. So we have fairly well defined roles that, we always joke that we have a lot more arguments on the dance floor than we do about writing.

Yuangrat (00:28:28) - Yeah.

Greg (00:28:29) - That's great. Well, you guys are great dancers.

Yuangrat (00:28:31) - As you know, the the Thai type society is very class, class society. And we, we are defined each individual person upon the background. Right. If you are from a royal family or your merchant or your lawyer by profession to. So that's in in our literature, in our fiction we try to the language used in English, it doesn't say much. I and you write an entire we have to go. And so when I transcend to I have to be aware of this translation and I hope we could express in English, but we couldn't we couldn't do it. How did you.

Yuangrat (00:29:09) - Yeah, there are.

Yuangrat (00:29:10) - A lot about that person, you know.

Ed (00:29:12) - Wait, I feel like.

Paul (00:29:13) - We have a translation. A Thai version of the book. One will be coming out.

Yuangrat (00:29:18) - It's very hard.

Paul (00:29:21) - Its being going through the final edit.

Yuangrat (00:29:24) - Now. Yeah, we. So that's what the first book.

Paul (00:29:27) - Yeah.

Greg (00:29:28) - Well wrapping up here, the first book is called beads on a string, A Novel of Southern Siam. The second book, which just came out at the beginning of May here, is called Dark Karma. Book two of the beads on the string trilogy, and part three is being written as we speak. And yeah, honestly, they're really, really well done. They're very interesting. As I was reading them, actually, I was reminded of another book that I read and I, I mean this as a compliment. It's a book that made me stop reading grown up fiction, historical fiction, because it's a book by, called A Fine Balance by a Canadian author called Rohinton Mistry. And it takes place in India in the 1950s, I think, and it's a similarly styled look at people living at that time, dealing with class and technological change and race and money and economics and discrimination and politics and I remember it was a very well received, won many, many awards when it came out.

Greg (00:30:28) - And it was so heartbreaking and so tragic that I when I was done, I'm like, I love that book and I hate it. I'm never gonna I'm going to go read science fiction. I'm going to read history books. All right. You know, it reminded me of that in the best way. And that it's a really the characters are interesting and captivating and, and you really learn a lot about the time and place. so that's what I'm taking away from this book. So, everyone, I recommend these books highly, highly, they're really, really well done. And you really start to learn more about southern Thailand, which as living in our Bangkok bubble, we often don't get a lot of knowledge about for sure.

Paul (00:31:02) - Well, let me assure you that, as as flattered as we are by the comparison, our books, although they have tragedy and, I know there's one that you feel. Yeah, I was not only about not.

Greg (00:31:17) - Happy about that.

Paul (00:31:18) - But, there is tragedy. And those times were difficult.

Paul (00:31:22) - People died at a much higher rate than they do these days. And the fiction has to reflect that. But basically, both of them end on a high note. Okay, good. Excellent.

Yuangrat (00:31:34) - Good. Good to hear.

Ed (00:31:35) - Good to hear.

Greg (00:31:35) - Well, let's end this interview on a high note. Thank you guys for coming down Paul and Yung Rat, it's a pleasure to sit down and chat with you and everyone. check out these books. They're on Kindle or in the bookstores. and they're, they're well worth picking up and reading. So. Yeah. Thank you for coming. Thank you guys.

Yuangrat (00:31:50) - Thank you for.

Yuangrat (00:31:50) - Giving your time.

Yuangrat (00:31:51) - Thank you, thank you.

Greg (00:31:52) - We'll talk to you again when the third one comes out. Yeah.

Paul (00:31:54) - Actually, actually, Dark Karma just appeared on Amazon this morning. Oh, nice.

Greg (00:32:00) - All right. Cool. Excellent.

Yuangrat (00:32:01) - So.

Paul (00:32:01) - All right. And it's available on the, River books website here in Thailand.

Greg (00:32:07) - Great. Okay. Well, we'll have you back for part three, 4 or 5, however many you decide to do.

Paul (00:32:13) - May we live that long?

Greg (00:32:14) - Sure. Thank you guys.

Yuangrat (00:32:16) - Take care. Thank you.

Ed (00:32:28) - Well, as I said before, they're the two easiest people to interview. you know, these books, the fact that they're mixing fiction with real historical events just makes them even cooler. And it's just amazing at the turn of the century, you know, from the 1800s to the 1900s. It's just shocking how fast Thailand developed. You know, it's really it really it really went. I don't know what the definition would be, but I mean, they you know, we've talked before, even in our trivia questions, just about how just completely undeveloped Thailand was, like in 1850 or 1860, 1870, but then by like 1920, it's got movie theaters.

Greg (00:33:11) - Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, talk about getting whiplash, right? Like, for sure. Like Industrial Revolution whiplash. You know, I mean, every country went through a lot of changes at the time, but Thailand at the time was, you know, just because of their unique political position and not to mention the geographic position and the politics of the time, you know, they just sort of benefited a great deal from this stuff, which shot them out of a slingshot in no doubt into the present day, you know, no doubt.

Ed (00:33:37) - So, I mean, you have that going on, which that alone would be a very interesting story, let's say, in Bangkok. But to have the story set in the South where you have, you know, I mentioned it before, I think I mentioned it last week. We talked about it in the interview, of course, but I'm just fascinated by the different cultural influences down there and how, you know, it was funny. At one point in the interview, they mentioned that like essentially in the South, it's almost like the Thais were the foreigners, because there's already like there's Malay, there's Malay down there, there's Mormons, there's Chinese. And I just find that that mixture fascinating. It just has a different flavor than central Thailand. So the fact that you have all these economic and technological developments taking place in the midst of this weird, like mélange of different cultures, it's pretty crazy.

Greg (00:34:31) - Oh my gosh, five points for that. I'm fascinated with the amount of research that must have been done for this.

Greg (00:34:38) - And, you know, they shortly after we did the interview, they spoke at the Foreign Correspondents Club to talk about this, which both you and I went to. And I asked them a question. I got up on the microphone and asked them. I said, when you're when you're writing words that are spoken by, in this case, King Rama the Fifth, because he's a character, a small character in the book. And he says a few things. like I said, what kind of research? And are you scared of writing stuff? You know, considering lese majeste and all that stuff? Like, what kind of risks are you comfortable with taking about putting these words into this person's mouth? And they basically said, it's just everything he said is based on roughly what he said. And that's pretty.

Ed (00:35:18) - Much straight.

Greg (00:35:19) - Historical, right? Yeah. Because he was just so well recorded and covered and like, everyone was there and listening and writing down what he did. So, so there was no danger there.

Greg (00:35:27) - But still, it's just all of these little things that they had to figure out and get through. And it's it's an amazing work to put all together in a, in a really compelling story. Yeah.

Ed (00:35:35) - I mean, it sounds like a vivid story. I got to just sit down and start reading. That's the only that's the only solution.

Greg (00:35:41) - Yeah, well, I got a couple of days off work coming up, and I think I'm going to spend one of them just sitting in a Starbucks, going to order one coffee and sit there for six hours and just read the book.

Ed (00:35:50) - Cool. I'm sure Starbucks would be really happy with that.

Greg (00:35:53) - Hey, as long as I bring my, my duvet, like the university student to fend off the air conditioning, I think I'll be.

Ed (00:35:59) - As long as you bring your huge comforter to, like, keep you warm. That's right.

Greg (00:36:04) - We should sell those. The Bangkok Podcast branded, Starbucks duvet.

Ed (00:36:08) - That's genius. That's a good idea.

Greg (00:36:12) - Guaranteed to keep you warm for those long study sessions in Starbucks.

Greg (00:36:16) - Anyway, thank you very much, Paul and Jung. Right. It was always great to sit down and chat and, yeah, we'll have you back on the show in part three. Comes out. Looking forward to those, no doubt.

Ed (00:36:24) - Thank you very much.

Greg (00:36:26) - All right. Let's do something that we call. Would you rather one of us picks two contrasting situations tied to Thailand to debate and choose which one we'd prefer. And this week, you're on the hot seat or am I on the hot seat? I don't know whatever is going to be. You're going to ask the question and I'm going to answer.

Ed (00:36:41) - All right, Mr. Guy, I can put you on the hot seat. You've got a buddy. Never been to Asia at all. Okay. Okay. And he wants to know if he should go to Hong Kong or Bangkok first. Now, I think the obvious answer is Bangkok. Because you're here, you could take care of him. But let's pretend you weren't here. So you can't guide him.

Ed (00:37:02) - You cannot take care of him. It doesn't even have to be a buddy. It could be a stranger. Would you recommend as a first visit to Asia? Is Hong Kong a better introduction or is Bangkok a better introduction?

Greg (00:37:18) - This is actually a really interesting question, because I've had a similar conversation with a buddy of mine who lives in Singapore. Oh, now, this is a very, very good friend of mine, but he's not really into getting too far off the beaten track when he travels. He likes to. He likes to have everything planned. He likes to know what to expect. Surprises, you know.

Ed (00:37:39) - Let me actually, just to clarify, let me add a little bit of twist. Just so we don't we don't we don't have to worry too much. Let's pretend it's the older Hong Kong, because we talked before about how with the changes in Hong Kong, it might not be at its peak.

Greg (00:37:53) - So maybe you're seeing like turn of the century Hong Kong 2000, Hong Kong kind of.

Ed (00:37:57) - Yeah, let's do something like that. Because, because, because I know currently it's I think it seems to be in a, you know, because a political situation, it might not be at its peak. So let's pretend we're talking about 2000 Hong Kong.

Yuangrat (00:38:09) - Okay.

Greg (00:38:09) - Well, this is interesting because I have told my friend because he said I like Singapore. It's it's, you know, it's very westernized. It's very predictable and safe. And he and he was asking me about traveling around Southeast Asia and I said, okay, well, start in Bangkok. and then once you get that done and you're comfortable with it, then you can go to, like, Ho Chi Minh City. And then once that's done, you can go to Panama Pan, and then once you've got all those under your belt, then maybe you can head to like, Yangon or something like that. Right.

Ed (00:38:37) - But that's but that's Southeast Asia. But what if we included.

Greg (00:38:40) - Exactly. But I'm saying if the, if, if my friend is a type of guy who is up for anything and just like I'm a crazy guy, I would say come to Bangkok.

Greg (00:38:47) - But if it was a friend who likes a little bit more structure and a little bit sort of a slower easing into Asia, I would say go to Hong Kong first because it's I think it's more more westernized in more. It would be more recognizable to someone who's maybe not prepared for the crazy Asian ness.

Ed (00:39:05) - Yeah, it's funny. I think that's a pretty good answer. You know the reason why? The reason why I thought the question was interesting is that, like I mentioned, last week or earlier, on the bonus show, anyway, like, Hong Kong is just unique and it is a weird, interesting, eclectic mix of East and west. So maybe maybe for the for the, for the total Asian newbie like Hong Kong would be an easier transition.

Greg (00:39:35) - I think so, I think so, yeah. Like it would be like dipping your toe into a warm bath, whereas like Bangkok would be just jumping right in without testing the water first. Yeah. And some people might prefer that, but some people might not.

Ed (00:39:47) - It is a little bit of a tough question. I mean, you and I are both Bangkok guys, and so it's easy for us to just say Bangkok. The thing about Bangkok is, even though it is very different from Western cities, and it can be, quote unquote, a shock, it's also true that Thai people are just so nice and welcoming and that it's so tourist friendly that there, you know what I mean? It's like a weird thing. It's not like so there is, I think, a measure of culture shock with some things you encounter here, but it is ameliorated by the fact that, again, it's tourist friendly and foreigner friendly. and at least, at least, at least they smile here like which they don't do, which they don't do in Hong Kong. So obviously, obviously, if we factor in, our jobs and our roles, we're always going to tell people to come to Bangkok for sure. Sure.

Greg (00:40:36) - Yeah, but but going in cold, I'd say it depends what type of person your friend is.

Ed (00:40:40) - Oh, that's a good answer. I mean, Hong Kong is probably, an easier answer for most people. Would probably be, I think would probably be an easier city. especially. Okay. The other I guess the other twist might be money. I guess if we, we might have to know, like, well, how much money do you have, dude. Yeah.

Ed (00:40:59) - So if you're, if you're on a budget, I'm going to guess Bangkok is just a better place to come.

Greg (00:41:03) - Yeah, yeah I agree I agree. Good question though. All right.

Ed (00:41:06) - Good answer. I think we roughly agree on that one.

Greg (00:41:08) - Nailed it.

Ed (00:41:09) - Alrighty, a final thanks to all of our patrons who support the show. Patrons get a ton of cool perks and the warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that they're helping in our never ending quest for cool content. Find out more by clicking support on our website and connect with us online. Where Bangkok podcast on social media Bangkok podcast.com on the web or simply Bangkok Podcast at gmail.com.

Ed (00:41:33) - We love hearing from our listeners and always reply to our messages.

Greg (00:41:38) - Totes, magotes! You can also listen to each episode on YouTube. You can send us a voicemail through our website that will feature on the show. Hit me up on threads at BCC. Greg. Thanks for listening everyone. Take it easy out there. Take care of yourselves and your family and your friends. We'll see you back here next week for sure.