Lawyer Dave Lawrence Gives a Legal Perspective on Divorce in Thailand [S7.E28]

Greg (00:00:05) - On this episode, we talked to our lawyer buddy Dave to discuss the nuances of divorce in Thailand.

Ed (00:00:11) - So if you've ever wondered what hidden details you should think about if you decide to head down this path, you'll love this episode of the Bangkok Podcast.

Greg (00:00:32) - So what the crap? And welcome to the Bangkok Podcast. My name is Greg Jorgensen, a Canadian who came to Thailand in 2001 and nearly had it ended for me in 2005 when a coconut fell off a tree and missed me by like three feet.

Ed (00:00:45) - True story that has happened to me. It's actually pretty scary. Really? Yeah. No, it's happened to me. you know, it's.

Greg (00:00:52) - I was I was on Ko Chang, and then just walking on the beach, and there's thunk, and I look behind me, and this bowling ball sized coconut just.

Ed (00:00:59) - Fell off. No, it's it's for real. Yeah. And I’m Ed Knuth, an American who came to Thailand on a one year teaching contract 23 years ago, fell in love with collecting 50 satang coins, and now I probably have $12.50, so I never left.

Greg (00:01:15) - Wow, 23 years to collect. 12 bucks in satang coins. You're way ahead of me.

Ed (00:01:20) - Man, those tiny little things. I can't believe they. They still use them. Yeah.

Greg (00:01:25) - It's ridiculous. You know what I do? I have an empty. I have an empty Jack Daniels bottle next to my door here. And whenever I get a sitting in my pocket, at the end of the day, I drop them in there. And when it's full, I don't know, I'll bury it in the backyard for some future kids to dig up or something.

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Ed (00:02:08) - We chatted about my experience taking some of my students to visit a film set, and how excited they were to meet some of the actors. More discussions on Lisa, including a suggestion from listener Liu that there might actually be a more salacious definition of some of her lyrics, as well as her upcoming stint on season three of White Lotus. As Greg and I begin watching season one and talk about Greg's new job, which, despite being on the other side of the city, is actually resulting in a fairly okay commute. To learn how to become a patron and get all this good stuff, plus full access to over 700 bonus and regular back episodes, click the support button at the top of our website.

Greg (00:02:51) - Fingers crossed that the commute remains okay.

Ed (00:02:53) - Yeah for sure.

Greg (00:02:54) - Right? And as always, if you have a comment to show idea or just want to say hi, head to Bangkok podcast.com and click the little microphone button on the bottom right to leave us a voicemail that we'll play on the show. So on this episode, we jump into a topic that is super happy and fun to talk about the big D divorce.

Greg (00:03:11) - Now, you might remember back in episode five, we did a show where Ed walked us through his divorce and what it took to get that sorted out. Thanks for that, Ed. That was very brave of you to do. And this episode serves as a sort of in-kind sequel. Now, naturally, divorce is messy and complicated. Even if you're living in a country where you already understand the rules, let alone a country like Thailand where things might not work at all like you expect them to do. So, since divorce usually involves a lot of lawyers, we contacted our senior legal correspondent, Dave Lawrence from Peg Leg Legal, who joined us to discuss what you need to think about when your marriage is coming to an end in Thailand, and what you can expect from your lawyer and the justice system. So here's our conversation with our pal Dave Lawrence. All right. Well, we are very lucky to have back our senior legal correspondent, one, Mr.. Dave Lawrence. Dave, welcome back to the Bangkok Podcast.

Dave (00:04:04) - Good to see you again, Greg. Thank you very much.

Greg (00:04:07) - I’m here with Ed. Ed.

Ed (00:04:07) - Hello, hello, hello.

Greg (00:04:08) - We're all three of us sitting down in a room, which is always a nice surprise when all three of us can get together. And, before we get into the main body of the show, I should say that this is for entertainment purposes only, and no legal advice should be taken from the show. Was that a good disclaimer? Right? Fair enough. Anyway, don't take legal advice from the Bangkok Podcast. It's just sort of a general overall.

Ed (00:04:27) - Informational purposes only.

Greg (00:04:29) - That's right, that's right. So today we're going to talk about something interesting. Now this is sort of a spiritual sequel to a show we did already. And that was a show on divorce where Andrew walked us through what it was like when you got a divorce to that. But I think your divorce was about as good as it could go in Thailand, I think.

Ed (00:04:49) - So obviously divorce itself is a bad thing, but it's one of those funny things because when you're ready for it and it happens, it's a good thing, you know? Right.

Ed (00:04:58) - So my, my, my life got better after I got divorced. But, tonight we want to talk about the legal issues around many divorces. In my case, I was lucky because where my ex-wife and I, we didn't have a lot of assets and the assets we had, we just kind of quickly agree to how we're going to divide them so that we. There was no paperwork. We never went to court and we we didn't have kids. So everything was by consent and by agreement. and, it wasn't particularly warm. I mean, it was like the end of our relationship. And so we got into some arguments here and there, but basically we just had to go to the district office and do some paperwork, have some witnesses. and that basically was the whole thing.

Greg (00:05:42) - I mean, if you're gonna get divorced, that's the way to do it.

Ed (00:05:44) - Now, I take it, Dave, you don't see this very often or you hear about it, but it's not your normal course of business.

Ed (00:05:51) - Is that correct?

Dave (00:05:52) - Yeah. I think when I interview a potential client or a couple, the first question I ask is, did you register your marriage in Thailand? Gotcha. Because if you haven't registered your marriage in Thailand, then you don't have the we'll call it the Ed option, right where you can just go to the down to the district office, with how many witnesses you need?

Ed (00:06:15) - Two witnesses. We had one and then. No. So we had to pull we had to pull one off the street and pay 100 baht a motorbike. I was our second witness.

Greg (00:06:22) - So funny.

Dave (00:06:23) - Motorbike guys make great witnesses.

Ed (00:06:25) - Yes they do.

Dave (00:06:27) - and so then the second question I always ask is, is do you have kids? So in your situation, your marriage was registered in Thailand and you had no kids. So this is absolutely if we created a two by two matrix, this is on the simple, simple end of things, thank God.

Greg (00:06:42) - But I just looked up real quickly about the divorce rate in Thailand.

Greg (00:06:45) - And this is the official divorce rate for Thailand is very low on average, much lower than the US or Australia. The official divorce rate for Thailand is 0.058 per 10,000 people.

Ed (00:06:54) - But does that mean, I wonder if that's because many marriages aren't are not officially registered? So if people don't do the paper when they get married, then obviously when they split, they just split, right?

Dave (00:07:04) - Yeah, I think that's that's one way. And then we have what I would say, a kind of a culturally Asian divorce, which is they live separate and apart, but don't legally divorce from one another. Oh, I see, so maybe they kind of they just go their separate ways, I see.

Ed (00:07:18) - So maybe they did the paperwork, but then when they separate, they don't do the paperwork at that point.

Dave (00:07:23) - Yeah. They stay married or yeah. They don't get they don't register the marriage in the first place. So we see that a lot with, higher net worth tie families where they'll either divorce to segregate their assets or not register the marriage in the first place, to not co-mingle their assets.

Ed (00:07:38) - Gotcha. Oh, I just thought of an interesting question. I remember reading that, I think it's northern Europe or Sweden. I read that getting married there doesn't change your legal rights very much. So there's a lot of people there who don't register their marriages. Whereas in the US there's significant legal consequences to be married or not. So there is some pressure to make it formal, right? Well, in Thailand is it, is it is it advantageous for a lot of people to get married? Are there significant benefits to being married legally?

Dave (00:08:13) - I think the the legal status of, of marriage is still pretty traditional. Of course, your rights change and your rights to property and what you earn and splitting things, you know, and ownership and children, children especially. So, for example, in Thailand, if you're not married and you have a child, the mother is the sole legal custodian of the child, and the father has no rights unless they go to court, and register them.

Greg (00:08:38) - Are we talking about a farang husband and a Thai?

Dave (00:08:40) - And he just any any any male?

Greg (00:08:42) - A male does not automatically get rights.

Dave (00:08:44) - Correct. So, yeah, there's a lot of confusion because people will get their names on the birth certificates which hospitals aren't supposed to do. but they do it. And if they're not married and then they think they're good, but actually that doesn't. That's just evidence that you are the father doesn't actually confer any, any legal rights. So being a.

Ed (00:08:59) - Genetic father confers no legal rights.

Dave (00:09:01) - Correct. Unless you're married.

Ed (00:09:03) - Unless you're married, right.

Dave (00:09:04) - If you're married, then then then of course you're it's both your problem. I mean, both your child. but.

Greg (00:09:11) - I repeat myself. Now, let's let's let's move back a bit before we get to the divorce stage. Let's go back in time when things are still good. Does Thailand recognize foreign marriages? Yeah.

Dave (00:09:21) - So the so the general rule is that foreign a marriage done legally anywhere is good everywhere. So this is what. And that's a kind of a global rule that allows people to travel as husband and wife throughout different countries without having to prove, you know, that they're that they're married and a couple.

Dave (00:09:38) - Oh, okay. yeah. For marriages abroad, if they're legal, where, where and when they're done, then they are recognized in Thailand. if you come to Thailand and you already have a marriage from abroad, that's legal, you also have an option which is like registration, where you can record your marriage. So you can, you can you can do it. We can do a marriage registration here, get a whole bunch of documents legalised, and go down to the district office and tell them that you're married. Okay. Got you. This is what happens with a lot of Thai Thai people who are married abroad. When they come back, then they want to.

Ed (00:10:07) - Kind of formalise it here.

Dave (00:10:08) - Correct? Right. So another interesting point that Ed brings up is that is common law marriage or rights that arise by cohabitation, which is pretty or living together. Not to use too much legalese, that's very common in the, European countries. In some states in America, we have the common law marriage, which is if you stayed together for a certain number of years holding ourselves out as husband and wife, you don't have to get a you don't have to have a marriage done.

Dave (00:10:36) - You'll be deemed to be to be married. In Thailand, there is none of that. So if you if you, for example, if you only have the ceremonial wedding and you don't ever record it, the parade, you know, with all the loud banging and stuff, if you have that parade but you don't register your your marriage, then no matter how long you stay together, the other person you will never acquire any sort of rights to each other's property through through that. Interesting.

Ed (00:11:01) - That's very technical and very formal.

Dave (00:11:04) - Yeah, it is, it is. I think it allows the, the mere noise to not attack the, not attack the, the family household in second and third. So we get a lot of second, third, fourth, fifth, fifth wives, depending on the culture that the family comes from. And, and so some of them you got to win. And this usually comes up in the context of I think we talked about wills previously of someone passing away. Then, then the the wives seem to come out of the woodwork and you figure out who's married and who's registered and who's claiming what and who's the shareholder and what company.

Dave (00:11:35) - But just to.

Ed (00:11:35) - Clarify, you can only have one registered spouse. Is that correct?

Dave (00:11:39) - Correct.

Ed (00:11:40) - Okay. When did that change? I think it changed. It wasn't super long ago. I'm going to say this is a good trivia question. I'll just throw it out there. I'm going to guess 1937. What's your guess?

Greg (00:11:54) - 1925.

Ed (00:11:55) - Okay.

Dave (00:11:56) - I think it was the summer of 69.

Ed (00:11:59) - Well, you guys keep talking. I'll Google it. All right.

Dave (00:12:02) - All right.

Greg (00:12:02) - So let's let's talk about, leading up to divorce. Then you're in a relationship and you realize it's not working and you want to finish it. you're legally, legally married. what what's the first step? You decide the divorce is the path you want to take. What do I do? I mean, what do they do? Not me. Because, you know, they. Because this. Because I'm happy.

Dave (00:12:22) - You're very happily married.

Ed (00:12:23) - Yes, exactly.

Greg (00:12:24) - Just. Just so we.

Dave (00:12:25) - Let's get that on the record.

Greg (00:12:26) - Exactly. Don't even misconstrued here.

Dave (00:12:29) - So the first thing people usually do is, take a look at, where they want to get divorced. You could either get divorced in Thailand, or sometimes you have the option to get divorced back home. Well, let's let's take the case of a foreign to two foreigners living in Thailand. Not to be cliche, but the husband goes and finds, a local gal that he shacks up with and and meanwhile the wife is angry, and decides to divorce him. So she'll first probably see a lawyer who will then go through the questions that we do. So she will go see, a lawyer to kind of learn about her rights in Thailand and perhaps her rights abroad, and then figure out whether they can get divorced in Thailand, either the district office or the court. And then if it's the court, then you have to go through another entire process of analyzing the case to figure out, issues. The main, the main issues are going to be grounds for divorce, which is in Thailand.

Dave (00:13:26) - You do need grounds for divorce, except, except a district office divorce. So that would be adultery is the most most common one globally, I believe.

Ed (00:13:35) - So when you say you need grounds for divorce, that's if it's not by consent. So when you say district office, you mean it's both parties. Agreed.

Dave (00:13:43) - Yeah. So if it's a if it's a if it's an eligible district office divorce, then that can just be done by consent. And there's no, no need for anyone to prove grounds that, that that's the closest Thailand comes to what we would call as a no fault divorce. Right. Because what we have all throughout the West now, right. The West, they don't consider adultery. They don't consider you don't have to have a reason. You can just have irreconcilable differences. Right. Which is right. But that's not a ground here. So here you have to have one of seven or 8 or 10 different reasons why you're, getting divorced, really in order to in order for the court to to accept the case, it has to be alleged in the petition that you file and then you have to prove it.

Dave (00:14:23) - If the case remains contested all the way through.

Greg (00:14:26) - Can you get a marriage annulled in Thailand?

Dave (00:14:29) - I've never seen it, but there are provisions that I've, been read or read in the English translation of the Civil and Commercial Code for I think it's called voiding a marriage. Okay. So there's a it's a, it's a, it's a unnecessarily long, section where you could make some fun, like hypotheticals, but it's but, but but in practice, we don't see it much. One is like concealing your right. One of the parties conceals their identity, true identity from the other party, and they find out within a certain period of time. But if they don't find out with a certain period of time, too late, you've married. Ha ha ha ha! Jane. Instead of Janet.

Ed (00:15:05) - And or Jane instead of John. Yeah. That's right. I'm curious about your is. Obviously, you do a lot of family law stuff in your own practice. Do you typically find that, you know this idea of a contested divorce? You obviously can contest property to meet.

Ed (00:15:26) - That would be the typical thing you'd be arguing about, or being able to see children and things like that. But do you ever get. Do you ever get one party saying, I want a divorce? And the other person saying, I don't want a divorce? You know, and and just arguing over the grounds. So. So is that common, actually? I mean, it seems like it would be kind of odd to want to stay married to someone who does not want to be married to you.

Greg (00:15:51) - Well, I mean, if the condition, like, if you're better off being married than you are being single. And I can see why someone would not want to not want to let that gravy train go.

Dave (00:15:59) - We see quite a bit of one party wanting to stay together. So to two answers to that. First, if you are the party who committed the grounds, you can't use your own mistake to sue the other one for divorce. So if you are.

Ed (00:16:12) - You were saying you are the.

Ed (00:16:13) - Yeah. Okay.

Dave (00:16:14) - So if you are the adulterer or adulteress, you cannot then go sue your partner claiming adultery as the grounds for the divorce because you're the one who committed the adultery.

Greg (00:16:23) - So they called dibs on adultery, right?

Dave (00:16:26) - and so, yeah. So we did have a case a few years back when I was at, Tillich and Gibbons where the husband was the adulterer or and actually had a secret children secret child from from many years previous that was was found out later and he sued for divorce and we said, you don't have grounds. And the case went all the way to the end. They spent all the money to litigate the case all the way to the end to the judgment. And the court agreed with us and said, you don't have grounds. You're not divorced. So they had gone through the entire divorce without ever getting divorced. So all the pain.

Ed (00:16:57) - And that's the price you pay for not listening to your lawyer. Correct.

Dave (00:17:01) - But this is not legal advice, right?

Ed (00:17:03) - Exactly, exactly.

Ed (00:17:04) - Yeah.

Dave (00:17:04) - So the main issues we find that are contested are, of course, property. and then what makes the, I would say a high conflict divorce or an acrimonious divorce is, is usually when it involves kids. if you have, especially if you have a foreign couple, one party will have no reason to want to stay in the country anymore. And if you have kids, then they're like, I'm taking the kids back home. And then the guy's like, no, you're not. Or maybe it's not always the guy, but let's just 98% and then the fight will become over the kids and then the court will. If they can't agree upon something, then the court will be forced to to make a decision as to as to custody.

Greg (00:17:42) - One one road I want to go down here is is the farang farang and Thai farang. The differences between them. Are there any differences between those two types of relationships when it comes to divorce? Like would a court handle, two foreigners wanting to get divorced differently from a foreigner and a Thai wanting to get divorced?

Dave (00:18:00) - Yes.

Dave (00:18:02) - so. Well, yes. Kind of. All right. So. So Thailand has, I'm sorry if we're getting too technical here, what is called the Conflict of Laws Act. And one of the provisions of the Conflict of Laws Act says that in terms of marriage, the law between the parties or the law that a court shall apply in a divorce will be the law of the domus of the of the citizenship of the husband.

Ed (00:18:25) - Okay.

Dave (00:18:25) - Right. So you, and the Thai courts used to just basically ignore this from, from from what I remember and just apply Thai law to everything. So back then there was no difference. But we've had cases in the last two years where the court has said, well, one case that wasn't ours, but they asked us to take a look at it where neither party had proved the law of the domicile of the husband. And the husband was a, I think, American or Canadian or something like that. And then at the end, no one talked about it.

Dave (00:18:53) - No one brought it up in the end. The court again, didn't let him get divorced, so they went through the whole process of thinking that they were going to get divorced. And then because, the husband didn't prove the law of his country would allow him to get divorced, then, the court did not grant the divorce.

Ed (00:19:10) - Interesting. Here's another question. we've had shows on dating and relationships in Thailand, and, we've talked about the cliche of a foreign men with Thai women is much more common than Thai men and foreign women. But do you? Is that hold true in your practice? Do you have to deal with divorce situations where at the time end in a foreign woman, and does it make any difference?

Dave (00:19:35) - So a few years back we had one, or it was a Thai man and a foreign woman, and that was actually a child abduction case under the the Hague Convention, where the husband had brought the children back to Thailand from a European country. So he had to file a petition to send the kids back to, to Germany.

Dave (00:19:52) - Wait.

Ed (00:19:52) - Also, you were representing the the wife, the representing.

Dave (00:19:54) - The the wife, in that one. And so but that's the only one I can remember in the, in the 15 years I've been doing, doing this work.

Ed (00:20:05) - So typically a foreign guy with a.

Dave (00:20:08) - With a tie to either. foreign. Yeah, foreign guy with a tie spouse or, two foreigners. Gotcha. We've done some high end, I would I would call high net worth tie divorces. But but those but that's usually worked out without knowing, without any need for foreign lawyers. Right.

Ed (00:20:25) - So I also want to ask about property. So in the US it's state by state determining, I don't even, you know, I studied this in law school, but then when when I was a lawyer, I never practiced any of this. so I'm not even familiar with it. But, you know, the issue, Greg, is usually just what what counts as who's property based on when you're married versus stuff you earn after you're married.

Ed (00:20:50) - So what's the general tie rule?

Dave (00:20:53) - I think it's pretty much the same as what we have everywhere, which essentially everywhere. Right. Which is whatever you brought into the marriage, is your separate property. They have, there's special Thai words for it. And then whatever you acquire, not through inheritance or not through a gift directly to you or not through through, but whatever you acquired during the marriage then would be joint joint property or marital property. And so that creates what's called a marital estate, which is divided, at the at some point in the divorce.

Greg (00:21:27) - Are prenuptial agreements common in Thailand?

Dave (00:21:29) - They're more more common. We do probably five a year, I would say. And, they're a little bit different than than in the West. first is that they, they can they're only valid if they're registered at the time you register your marriage at the district office. You have to register the prenup at the same time, like.

Greg (00:21:49) - Same day or same month.

Dave (00:21:51) - At the same.

Ed (00:21:51) - Time, really.

Dave (00:21:52) - At the same time.

Dave (00:21:53) - It's just another document that you file with the with the district office. and they can be tricky because they'll take a look at it, and you can't and you don't have the same flexibility in Thailand that you would have, in like California, for example. So you can't carve out, if we get divorced, then I'm already we're already deciding that you're getting the kids which which can be tricky or, here is going to be what is your alimony in the end of the divorce? Or here's a payment that you'll get at the end of the divorce. I haven't seen them. I haven't seen prenups be registered that have that that kind of detail. And also you can't keep you can keep properties separate. But I'm not sure whether you can keep income separate. So you may not be able to exclude the other party from your income or what you what you earn.

Ed (00:22:45) - Is a prenup still a a wise thing in general? I vaguely feel like among my lawyer friends in the States that they recommend Prenups as just ways to clarify things and solve future problems is that if you see it that way, like if you if a if a couple thinking of getting married came to you for business advice.

Ed (00:23:08) - and they were asking your opinion, would you do would you generally think a prenup is a good idea?

Dave (00:23:14) - Generally, I think it's a good idea. I do a little bit of a different balancing test than most, and that is, what is going to be the pain of the guy bringing this up to ask her to sign the prenup, right? Because sometimes that sort of ruins the mood, let's say. Right, right, right. I love you, but. Right. You never want to say I love you, but so I love you. But. But you're not getting anything right? Right. So. So that's kind of balancing test I do. And you know, who knows? The guy may become a millionaire in the future, but if he's not a millionaire now and his prospects aren't that great, he's got to do that bouncing test. But but on average, if she's down with it and he's down with it for sure, they should do it, right. It just it just adds protection.

Dave (00:23:51) - And and as you said, it solves feature problems. Right? Right. Or at least puts a framework for solving future problems. That's a little bit more, more practical.

Greg (00:24:00) - You know, in Western divorces, the squabbles can get pretty intense and ridiculous. And I always remember clearly this, very famous photo of a couple that got divorced. This was back in the 90s, And, in the court, they had been Beanie Baby collectors.

Ed (00:24:14) - And for those for.

Greg (00:24:15) - Those youngsters that don't know, Beanie Babies were these stuffed animals that came out in the 90s and they were hugely crazy popular, and they were collector's items, and some of them were going for hundreds and thousands of dollars, and some of them are worthless. But there is this very funny case of these, this husband and wife who were getting divorced on their knees in front of the judge, like in the courtroom, and they were dividing up this huge pile of Beanie Babies on the floor of the courtroom while the lawyers looked on and stuff like this.

Greg (00:24:42) - So it can get a bit ridiculous. But going back to what we were talking about earlier, about kids, when a divorce happens with, let's just say for sake of argument with a, with a Western man and a Thai woman, because that's probably more common than not. does the man have more or less rights? Does the court sort of favorably look on one person or the other in that regard?

Dave (00:25:06) - I guess when it comes to custody or when it comes to divorce, generally, the rule of thumb I usually apply is that getting divorced in Thailand is better for the mom when it comes to custody, and better for the dad when it comes to having to pay. Right? So child support and alimony are a lot, tend to be a lot lower than what you would get in the in a Western jurisdiction. But there there is when it comes to younger children especially, there's favoritism. And sort of I believe it's a I think they've told me that there's a Supreme Court decision that the when it comes to young children, the mother should be preferred for custody.

Ed (00:25:40) - So I got another question for you. and your legal career has been mostly in Thailand or all in Thailand.

Dave (00:25:48) - My legal work.

Ed (00:25:49) - Your or your legal career? Did you work?

Dave (00:25:51) - No, I practiced divorce, actually. I practice a lot of divorce in the U.S. before I came over. Oh, perfect.

Ed (00:25:56) - Then here's my question. since. No, this is perfect, I've got a plan. No. It's perfect. we talk a lot on the podcast about just cultural differences between the West and Thailand and everyone you know in the world will tell you Asians are less confrontational. And I think this is generally true of Thai people. They're less direct, less confrontational day to day. But when it comes to divorce, are they as acrimonious here? Like, do you, do you do you notice any cultural differences in how these unhappy couples resolve their differences. Or is a bad marriage and just a bad marriage? Like universally. Good question.

Dave (00:26:42) - Once it gets to the point of being in court or becoming a true fight, I think the the gloves come off, so to speak.

Dave (00:26:47) - Right? And and it can be as vicious as any, any other fight in any other, any other jurisdiction. so I don't think there's that much of a difference, but, but, but it's sort of the lead up to that point is a little bit more, more a gentler slope. Right?

Ed (00:27:04) - So maybe so maybe so Thai couples possibly are or Thai spouses, there might be a little bit more accommodating or maybe less aggressive in terms of rushing to divorce. I'm kind of fascinated by this question. You know, I mean, I don't it's funny. I, you know, I have stories from friends and obviously I, I absorb a lot of Western pop culture, but it's just, it's it seems that marriage in the West can go back quickly.

Greg (00:27:36) - In the West. I think divorce has sort of like a, like a cult of celebrity around it. You know, you, Elizabeth Taylor, she's known for being married nine times and divorced eight times. Whatever it was. right? We always count, like the celebrities, how many divorces they've had.

Greg (00:27:50) - And there's all these front page stories about this acrimonious divorce between person Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. Whatever it was. I don't know if it's the same in Thailand. I don't read Thai newspapers, but in the West, divorce is almost sort of like this subculture of celebrity obsessiveness.

Ed (00:28:04) - Well, that's true what I just mean that I feel that in the States at least, like divorces can happen very fast. Like, I mean, just from my own experience with friends, it's like the people are just happily married for ten years, as far as everyone knows. And then and then bam, like they're getting divorced and it's like, Holy, what? Wait, what? What happened? And it just seems very quick to turn to the law. And, you know, everyone's hiring lawyers and then boom, it accelerates. I'm curious if there's, I guess, you maybe you already answered the question. Do you think there's a the ramp is a little more gradual here.

Dave (00:28:38) - It's a great, great question.

Dave (00:28:40) - I haven't really thought about it until until now when you're bringing it up. But I think maybe there's a the the familial bond here is a lot stronger. So so that's maybe that's what the slow lead up is, is that it's just tougher to break. It's just more difficult to for someone to accept breaking that that family relationship. But in the end it all comes down to the individual As we say, one divorce is a tragedy to his bad luck. Three it's a hobby, right?

Ed (00:29:05) - But but in the end, what you're saying is once, once it turns into a fight, people are people. And so you're saying that the fights are just as vicious here as they would be back home?

Dave (00:29:14) - Yeah, they get they get bad. I mean, but and that mostly revolves around children, right. Because the, the, the love for the children turns into, you know, anger towards the person who you perceive as trying to take your kids away from you. Right?

Ed (00:29:27) - Sure, sure. Use those leverage points.

Dave (00:29:29) - Yes. That mama bear instinct is real.

Greg (00:29:31) - So is the daddy bear. So you you you're you're moving through the divorce and everything. You've agreed on this. You get the house, you get the boy, I get the girl. Whatever. the the papers are signed. Is there any special, process or legal framework that's particularly unique to Thailand? Yes. What happens next? Yeah.

Dave (00:29:51) - So let's walk from kind of the beginning through and will for the fact pattern or the basic facts. We'll just say it's a Thai and a foreigner with a couple kids and significant assets. But but nothing nothing crazy. And the guy's got a good job. And so whatever they want to break up, let's assume they have grounds. Don't need to say what they are. In Thailand, if you have kids, when you file a divorce, you you get a stamp right on the petition that you've filed that says you must see the juvenile observation officer within 15 days of filing. So that's juvenile observation officer is essentially a social worker who will then make a recommendation to the court as to who should get custody or whether it should be joint custody.

Dave (00:30:36) - Wow. and it's quite, a quite an experience, especially for a foreigner, because you have to go there with an interpreter and sort of make your case to that. We call them the jail to make. Make your case to the j o o, and then someone will go with the child, and then they'll basically ask the child, who do you want to be with? It seems to be pretty, That's rough. Yeah. I don't think it's very modern in terms of how they go about making the determination. So there's that. Once you get through that, the court doesn't have to follow that recommendation. But usually they usually they do. Then you go through the case and next would be a mandatory mediation. So mediation is compulsory. At least one 1 or 2 mediations is compulsory here like it is in the, in the West in most jurisdictions. And then you do the mediation and then if you still can't resolve things, you they set the case for trial and then maybe six months, eight months, ten months, a year, 18 months later, depending how hard you're fighting in between.

Dave (00:31:32) - Then then you have the trial, similar to the US or other jurisdictions. People will often settle the case at the last minute, so that that part's almost the same. Where you just come to a settlement agreement, you show the court the settlement agreement. They either agreed to it, reject it, tell you to modify it somehow, and then you set it in and then you're done. Right? So that's how most, most of the cases resolved through through settlement, not not through trial, just like the West. But where I do get involved is I also do a lot of mediation work. So if you have just a couple who wants to try to work things out or get a divorce, then I'll do mediation. And that's kind of where I get more involved. and also with the the Hague Convention on Child Abduction Cases, because that's international law, not not Thai law. Then I can get much more involved with those. Why don't you talk about that?

Ed (00:32:16) - Because I know Greg has brought this up before, but this is an interesting topic.

Greg (00:32:20) - Because when I went to Canada with my son, year last year at the airport, at immigration, before they let us out of Thailand, I had to show his birth certificate with my name on it. I had to show a letter from the mom with her photo and my wife's ID, and I've even heard of a friend who was. Who was leaving with his daughter, and they called the mom on FaceTime and got her to ask questions, to chat with the daughter and listen in to make sure that everything was kosher.

Dave (00:32:44) - I have been that guy also. Oh really?

Ed (00:32:46) - So what exactly does the law say, Dave?

Dave (00:32:48) - I have no idea. But but in practice, what I found through my own personal life, as well as what, I've heard is similar to what Greg said. my experience has been, if you are a foreigner trying to bring Thai passport children out of the country, they're a lot more stringent than if you're a Thai person bringing Thai children out of the country. and a lot is a lot of that is to prevent kidnapping, parental child abduction or kidnapping in the first place, because it's always a lot harder to get them back than it is to, you know, than to keep them here.

Dave (00:33:21) - so that's what we see with that. So, yeah, As you said.

Ed (00:33:24) - Essentially a tiger mother could leave the country with her kids, but a foreign father would be much harder, is what you're saying.

Dave (00:33:30) - Technically, it's not supposed to be that way, but that's what I found practically and heard interesting.

Ed (00:33:35) - And then what about. But since we're talking about international law, the same would apply if, let's say, a Thai guy grabbed his kids in the States and tried to bring them back to Thailand.

Dave (00:33:46) - Yeah. So that so yeah, that gets right into the heart and the core of the the Hague Convention. So maybe a little bit of background. It's called the Hague Convention. Hague convention on the Civil Aspects of Parental child abduction, which is called the Hague Convention. And what that does is in a scenario where a guy takes his kids from the US, if they're living in the US, which we would call their habitual residence and brings them to any other country. if that country is also a member.

Dave (00:34:19) - that's oversimplifying it, but a member of the Hague Convention, then he can file a petition to get them sent back. and technically, it's supposed to be a fast process. and they don't consider anything. Except where did the kids live before? Were they wrongfully, abducted? And if so, send them back for for that court, then the court where they belong or court where they live to to do it? In practice, of course, it's a lot more more complicated than that. yeah. We had a case where there was a foreign couple living here, and mom went back for a vacation to to a European country and then decided not to come back.

Ed (00:34:58) - Oh.

Dave (00:34:59) - and so that's, that's what would be called not abduction, but that's called wrongful retention in a non. So neither of them were residents here that she was a citizen of that of that country. And that court ordered her to send the kids back to Thailand.

Ed (00:35:11) - Oh wow.

Dave (00:35:12) - So it seems bizarre, right? It seems like a strange thing, but it all depends where where the children were living and what they would call their home before they before they left.

Ed (00:35:20) - Gotcha. Interesting.

Dave (00:35:21) - so that that's, That kind of.

Greg (00:35:24) - Work. So in your experience, saying you're going into a, into a marriage, what what would you recommend someone does to avoid all of the pitfalls or wrong turns if things go bad? Because, you know, what do they say? Is there a quote about being prepared? Preparation. Is the soul of divorce something like that, I don't know, but what what have you seen That that where things have gone really wrong that could have been prevented?

Dave (00:35:52) - So are you asking me to give advice against my own personal financial interest of being a involved in divorce lawyer?

Ed (00:35:58) - How do you make money from divorces? Do you stop people from.

Greg (00:36:01) - Getting divorces and calling?

Dave (00:36:02) - You never say yes, dear. Always fight every die on every every hill. Yeah, and that's the way to know. So. So what I see, I think for most of what I see when it's a foreigner and a Thai divorce, from my own experience as well as I think everyone's experience is this sort of, not speaking nicely to your Thai spouse.

Dave (00:36:24) - Being short or not, or having some sort of edge on your tone is always a big, big problem.

Greg (00:36:29) - Just like generally or during the divorce.

Dave (00:36:31) - Generally or at any point in time. We're saying avoiding avoiding the divorce in the first place, right? and then another one would be I think we're kind of getting into relationship advice, but, temper, right temper and raising your voice. Any any sort of. A lot of it, it seems voice related where I don't they don't like the way they're the they won't they will say they won't like how they were talked to. And that's a big source of of conflict.

Greg (00:36:55) - Have you ever been in court and or going over a divorce in Thailand? And and someone does something and you just kind of go, oh, I shouldn't have done that.

Dave (00:37:05) - yeah. Again, if if Thai if anger gets you nowhere in Thailand and nowhere in your relationship with your Thai spouse, it really gets you nowhere in front of the Thai court.

Ed (00:37:15) - Yeah, right. I mean, that's right.

Dave (00:37:17) - It's that's just like when you see the judges, there's usually a panel of 2 or 3, 2 or 3 judges when you see them, like go like this.

Ed (00:37:23) - And, leaning back, I'm leaning.

Dave (00:37:25) - Back when they when they sort of put their hands on the table and lean back. you you ixnay on the testimony.

Greg (00:37:32) - T for a lawyer.

Ed (00:37:34) - Facepalm yeah, that's right, that's right. It's interesting because, I mean, I like this this mix of stuff that's just universal universal relationship stuff, universal divorce stuff when things go bad. But I really do think just understanding Thailand and Thai culture is going to help a marriage here. So I mean, I mean, I think most foreigners are smart enough to realize this. You just you just can't play by the same rules you'd play back home when you're here. It just doesn't make sense. I mean, I mean, the, the I mean, the cliche is just in very, very basic sense, like from 101 is, you know, I remember someone telling me like, hey, when you marry a Thai woman, you marry her family tree, you know? And then that's just I remember hearing that, like, really? What? Wait, I thought, I'm marrying what? You know, and then.

Ed (00:38:24) - But you learn like, no, no, no, you you're marrying your whole family. So. So I think if you if you recognize these things, along with some more advanced stuff, you probably have a much better chance of staying married, I think, to a Thai woman.

Dave (00:38:36) - And I guess what it is, it's not second nature. You have to learn it, right? You have to learn the behaviors and you have to learn the cultural differences, and then you have to consciously implement them. I can't so for me, you know, coming from a legal background, my my tone has been barking, you know, from just just naturally through me. So for me, it's still difficult and I fail on a daily basis. But you've got to just think a little bit. Maybe do a few breathing exercises before you go into the office or before at the office to write. So it's it's work this all I think all.

Ed (00:39:08) - This is applicable to work for.

Dave (00:39:10) - Relationships, to pretty much everything.

Dave (00:39:11) - And I really think that's a it's.

Ed (00:39:13) - A very good one to say.

Greg (00:39:14) - Man, this is what I want to do. I really want to create like a special type of yoga that you do in Thailand before you go into a bureaucracy like office. I just like to. To lower your heart rate. To get your breathing down.

Ed (00:39:28) - Every time I'm waiting for a taxi, I'm doing breathing exercises.

Greg (00:39:31) - That's the way I. Yeah, I got a patent that I think it'll be really successful.

Ed (00:39:35) - It's so funny.

Greg (00:39:37) - Well, Dave, if someone out there did not follow our advice and is heading to down down the road to divorce, where can they get Ahold of you to help them out?

Dave (00:39:47) - The easiest way to get Ahold of me is through my Twitter account, which is at Yahoo. Peg leg.

Greg (00:39:52) - Why are peg leg? Ya. Peg leg. Ya. Well, did you make that on speaker like a pirate day?

Ed (00:39:58) - Yes. Cool.

Greg (00:40:01) - Perhaps I knew it all right. Ya peg leg on Twitter.

Greg (00:40:03) - And if they're not on Twitter? Website.

Dave (00:40:05) - Website is, peg leg al.

Ed (00:40:11) - All right. Cool.

Greg (00:40:12) - Well. Thanks, man. Two out of three of us are still married. Let's hope it stays that way. Heck, yeah. And we can live vicariously through you. Footloose and fancy free single guy.

Ed (00:40:23) - Yeah. I don't know if you want to do that, but it's up to you.

Greg (00:40:27) - But good to chat, Dave. Thanks for coming on the show and talking about something that I hope many people can avoid.

Dave (00:40:32) - Thanks, guys, and very good to see you at in person at a at a at a podcast. Really appreciate.

Ed (00:40:36) - It.

Greg (00:40:37) - A rare event indeed. We're off to do some breathing exercises.

Ed (00:40:40) - Correct. Thanks, man I. Always like catching up with Dave. You know, as I said in the interview, you know, my particular situation was the absolute simplest it could possibly be. And so in my case, I can't give that much advice that will help other people from my situation because mine was just piece of cake.

Ed (00:41:07) - so it was kind of cool to hear the details on when stuff gets more complicated.

Greg (00:41:13) - Yeah, exactly. You were you were in a you were what we should aspire to if you ever get divorced. Because it was pretty simple for you. Yeah. Saying it was easy, but it was about as easy as it can get.

Ed (00:41:23) - Yeah. You should aspire to have no kids and no money. Then then then things are really easy. Just totally easy.

Greg (00:41:32) - I remember years ago I was joking with my wife and I said, oh, what are you going to do, divorce me? And she's like, oh, what am I going to get your comic books? I was like, well, yeah, all right.

Ed (00:41:40) - That's no, that's that's scared you. You were like, oh shit, she might get my comic book, so I better behave myself.

Greg (00:41:46) - I love you, but yeah, it's an interesting idea. And like I said, you know, even in our own countries, divorce is kind of an opaque field.

Greg (00:41:55) - Like, we don't know all the nuances of the laws and stuff like that until.

Ed (00:41:58) - You get there. Right?

Greg (00:41:59) - In Thailand, where all the legal proceedings are in Thai and everything needs to be translated for sure, it can be really daunting and scary.

Ed (00:42:06) - Oh no doubt. Yeah. it, I mean, this type of show I think is a is a good thing, even though it is a obviously it's a bit of a downer for a topic, but it's a necessary one, I think.

Greg (00:42:18) - Yeah, I think so too. I was just reading the other day actually, that the Philippines now is, is, is noodling over whether to make divorce legal. Oh, wow. Because it's one of the only countries in the world. I think the only other one is like the Vatican where divorce is illegal.

Ed (00:42:30) - So, I think for a while it was in Ireland. But I think they did change that in Ireland. Yeah.

Greg (00:42:35) - Yeah. Get with the times Philippines. Anyway. yeah. So if you happen to find yourself in this unfortunate situation, I mean, reach out to David Peleg and and he'll sort you out.

Greg (00:42:44) - But some good information there. And, thanks again, Dave, for coming on and chatting to us. And, you know, hopefully we'll never need to use it. But if we do, we know where to look. All right. Let's get into some lovely weather. Live with where one of us picks a particular aspect of living in Bangkok, which we discussed to decide if it's something we love about living here, loathe about living here, or have come to accept as something that we just have to learn to live with no matter how we feel about it. And this week, Ed, what do you got for me?

Ed (00:43:08) - Well, dude, I'm going to go old school here. You and I have talked about this, way back in the day. It might have made an appearance on the podcast a long time ago, but, some listeners out there, you might not be aware of these things, or you might not have heard us talk about them. Greg, I got to ask you about the the infamous Thai pillow that is shaped like a triangle.

Ed (00:43:31) - And it's kind of, like, stiff and long. You know what I'm talking about?

Greg (00:43:36) - Oh, yeah? Are you talking about the big ones? They're like, yeah, they're like big. They're like.

Ed (00:43:40) - Big firm. They're like big firm triangular pillows. So they're not soft. Big firm triangular pillows. I just saw a YouTube video that that were these things made an appearance and I haven't tried to use one in a while, but I have. I have an opinion about these.

Greg (00:43:57) - Yeah, I think I think we, me and Evo did one of the like a Love Loader live with on this back in season two. And I know you've been you and I have talked about it, but not recently.

Ed (00:44:05) - So what is your take on those things?

Greg (00:44:07) - My take is I joked, I said only Thailand could take something like a soft pillow and put corners on it. I hate them. I think they're stupid. They're uncomfortable. They don't fit anywhere. They're hard to store. They're. They're useless.

Greg (00:44:19) - I don't like them.

Ed (00:44:20) - I'm okay. I, I am utterly baffled by those things. I wonder if, do you think they're just meant to be a fashion statement? Because every time in my life where I've ever tried to use one, like, okay, you look at it, it's a triangle, it's got an angle. So you think, okay, well, maybe I, you know, I could tilt my head against it, but it always feels like the wrong angle. Like, it's just it's like, totally like you get a crick in your neck, so. And then you think, okay, well, maybe you're supposed to kind of sit up and lean back, you know, like maybe put your like, laptop on your lap, but you lean back way too far, like, so you, you can't use it to like, sit. So I have no idea what. I have no idea what the use of those things is.

Greg (00:45:02) - And you can't put them, like on the floor and then lean against them because they just slide backwards and you end up falling back.

Greg (00:45:07) - You can't put them up against the wall because it's like an isosceles triangle.

Ed (00:45:11) - That's right, that's right.

Greg (00:45:12) - So one side doesn't fit straight against the wall. So I don't know what they're used for. Beyond decorations that look vaguely Thai.

Ed (00:45:22) - Loathe I'm a hard loathe on this.

Greg (00:45:24) - Hard loathe for me too. I don't get why they me popular at all, right.

Ed (00:45:28) - Unless you just. I guess the only defensible thing would be to say this is purely for decoration, and you're a fool for trying to use them. You know, that's what the only that's about the only. Maybe the joke is on us foreigners. Where were Thai people are like, dude, you're not supposed to try to lean against it.

Greg (00:45:47) - You know, I think it might be because, again, ties with the people that that, you know, you always go to the mall and you see those chairs that are nothing but hardwood, like carved out of a tree or something. That's right. I sit on the floor to eat food all the time.

Greg (00:45:59) - So maybe they're just laughing at us soft powder puff foreigners who can't deal with something that's not soft and cushy.

Ed (00:46:07) - Listeners out there. If anyone knows how to actually use those pillows, please let us know.

Greg (00:46:14) - So I can still I'm still not going to buy one even if I know. But at least we'll be able to advise others. So maybe.

Ed (00:46:19) - Maybe we're missing some secret. Maybe there's some secret method, like you have to tilt it up or I don't know, I don't know.

Greg (00:46:24) - Do you have your. Have you ever worn a tuxedo? You know. Do you remember the first time you found out that you have holes in the pockets of your pants and tuxedos, so you can stick your fingers through and pull your shirt down while, like, inside your pants?

Ed (00:46:36) - I never knew that. I'm completely. I'm unaware of that to this day. You. Just. Today I learned that.

Greg (00:46:41) - Blew your mind. Maybe there's a similar secret with the pillows. I don't know, I mean, don't.

Ed (00:46:45) - Don't want coins. Go through the hole.

Greg (00:46:47) - No, they're at the top of your pocket.

Ed (00:46:49) - Oh, the top of the right, underneath. Okay, okay. Okay. Now. Okay, now I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? Maybe there's some secret to the triangular pillow, right?

Greg (00:46:58) - And once we unlock that, then, like, oh, just like a tuxedo pants.

Ed (00:47:02) - I'll have like ten of them in my in my room.

Ed (00:47:06) - Alrighty, a final thanks to all of our patrons who support the show. Patrons get a ton of cool perks and the warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that they're helping and are never ending. Quest for cool content? Find out more by clicking support on our website and connect with us online or Bangkok podcast on social media Bangkok podcast.com on the web or simply Bangkok Podcast at gmail.com. We love hearing from our listeners and always reply to our messages.

Greg (00:47:30) - Yeah baby. You can also listen to each episode on YouTube. Send us a voicemail through our website through a feature on the show.

Greg (00:47:35) - Hit me up on threads at BKKGREG, thank you for listening. Everyone. Take it easy out there and we will see you back here next week. No doubt.