Looking Back on the 2006 Coup and Why We’re Still Feeling it Today [S7.E20]

Greg (00:00:03) - And on this episode, we do a little bit of reminiscing about the 2006 coup and the effects that we are still feeling today in Thailand.

Ed (00:00:12) - So whether you were here in 2006 or you just read about it in books, you'll learn a lot from this episode of the Bangkok Podcast.

Greg (00:00:36) - Somewhat decrepit. And welcome to the Bangkok Podcast. My name is Greg Jorgensen, a Canadian who came to Thailand in 2001 and never went back because our national tree is the maple and Thailand's national tree is the golden shower tree. Enough said.

Ed (00:00:50) - Yeah, maybe we shouldn't talk about that. Maybe too much. Said. And I met Knuth, an American who came to Thailand on a one year teaching contract 23 years ago, fell in love with pretending. I don't understand what Thai people are saying anytime they say something I don't like. So I never left.

Greg (00:01:06) - Seriously man, that that dumb farang thing can be a lifesaver. It is a total lifesaver.

Ed (00:01:11) - I've relied on it many, many times.

Greg (00:01:13) - Yeah, and there's also fringe benefits to also being stereotyped as a dumb farang.

Greg (00:01:17) - Like when you're walking down the street and people are handing out flyers and stuff, they're like, okay, give it to that guy. He doesn't speak Thai.

Ed (00:01:23) - That's right. I just looked confused and baffled. Yeah.

Greg (00:01:26) - Like when you do your taxes, you just walk in there. What's happening?

Ed (00:01:29) - It's it's it's kind of like an instant exemption. Exactly. Which I like. Yeah.

Greg (00:01:34) - It's it's good to have a good card to have in your back pocket.

Ed (00:01:38) - All right. We want to give a big thanks to all of our patrons who support the show. Patrons get every episode a day early, behind the scenes photos of our interviews, heads up to send questions to upcoming guests and access to our discord server to chat with me, Greg, and other listeners around the world. But best of all, patrons also get an unscripted, uncensored bonus episode every week where we riff on current events and Bangkok topics. On this week's bonus show, we chatted about the danger that Thailand might lose its spot as the number one exporter of durian to China to Vietnam, comments on Thailand's sensationalistic media landscape and how some media bodies are pushing for more responsibility, and a demo of the brand new ChatGPT fort, which helped us translate Thai with some frightening accuracy to learn how to become a patron and get all this good stuff, plus full access to over 700 bonus and regular back episodes.

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Greg (00:02:40) - That's right. And if you noticed that this week show sounds a little bit different, it's because, strangely enough, Ed and I are actually sitting in the same room right now. Yes, we are recording the show face to face, which we don't usually do. It's a little bit a little bit odd. It's weird. Yeah. After. After what for? I don't think five years of.

Ed (00:02:57) - We've never done it right. I mean, we've done a lot of interviews in person, but we've never done just.

Greg (00:03:02) - Show face to face. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's odd. We haven't done too many of it. Yeah. I don't like.

Ed (00:03:05) - It. I don't like being so close to you. It's weird.

Greg (00:03:07) - Yeah. Let's let's go back to being miles apart. It's our natural state. All right, well, on this episode, we are going to go back in time to a time when a lot of foreigners were very frightened or at least unsure about being in Thailand.

Greg (00:03:23) - And this is the 2006 coup. Now, those who have been here a long time probably remember this very well, and those who came here after 2006 have probably read a lot about it. But it was a particularly interesting time in Thailand's modern history. Not only because it was the first time that Ed and I lived through a coup, but because it signaled a massive change in Thailand's political landscape in such a way that we are still feeling its direct effects today, almost 20 years later. So for no reason whatsoever, we just thought it would be interesting to take a look back, discuss this, reminisce a little bit, talk a little bit about the coup and why it's still resonates with us today. So you are the politics guy here? I was here for this, but I don't know, it was sort of the nitty gritty details in the same level as you do. So Ed, I'm going to follow your lead. What do you think?

Ed (00:04:10) - All right. Yeah. You know, this event, the coup d'etat in 2006, I really do think it's, the most major event in Thai history in our era, like, you know, since we've been here for sure, like, I mean, you're intellectually said it perfectly that it really changed the complete landscape of Thai politics.

Ed (00:04:27) - And it took me a long time to get my head around the whole experience. What happened to process it? and of course, later we subsequently had another coup. But I just wanted to talk about what happened in 2006. I, like you said, I think it's a extremely significant event. So, so a little bit of background listeners. So I came here in 2000, around the same time that Greg came, and roughly around the time I got here, there was a new election and a business tycoon named Thaksin Shinawatra or Shinawatra. If you go by the English spelling, he won the election and it wasn't particularly close. And he won the election for a couple different reasons. He was a very, very successful businessman, billionaire, and he presented himself as the saviour of the Thai economy, which had been suffering badly since a 1997 financial crisis that Thai people referred to as the tom yum tom yam goong crisis, and that crisis involved currency manipulation and a whole bunch of other things. But it led to a it started in Thailand, led to a domino effect.

Ed (00:05:34) - And it was a. A massive financial crisis throughout Asia, and it required Thailand to actually borrow money from the world Bank and the IMF. Now, I can't remember the exact numbers, but they were crazy. I think that, I think Thailand got extended a credit of something like $17 billion. I'm not sure they used the whole thing. I think they ended up borrowing something like 12 or $13 billion. And one of a Thaksin's main, election promises was that if he was elected as a businessman, he would be able to pay back this loan on time. So Thailand was very worried about defaulting and Thailand didn't want to become some type of debtor nation. So this was a very stressful time in Thai history. And Thaksin one. So this was about six months after I got here. There was a new prime minister and, the, the whole Thai political scene at this time was extremely optimistic. there's, I don't have time to go into all the details, but there had previously been a coup in 1991 and in the 90s, the, the basically tax society spent a lot of time thinking about and trying to figure out how to fix a lot of perennial problems in Thai politics.

Ed (00:07:02) - So by then there had already been many coups and many constitutions. And I feel that 90s was this period of kind of thoughtful reflection where, like Thai leaders, leaders of Thai society were really, genuinely trying to figure out how do we get out of this mess, how do we get out of this vicious cycle of of coup and rewriting of constitutions? And, so they took several years to write a new constitution, which got passed in 1997.

Greg (00:07:31) - The 97 constitutions so well known.

Ed (00:07:33) - Yeah, people just call it the 97 Constitution, but it was the first constitution in Thai history that, was drafted, over a long period of time. It wasn't rushed. like, one of the problems with these military coups is a lot of times the military, like in two weeks, they have to, you know, write a new constitution. Yeah. You know, the 97 Constitution was something they took a couple of years to work on. They had representatives from every province. They had representatives from multiple different professions.

Ed (00:08:03) - they had, just all kinds of experts. And, one of the first things I did when I got to Thailand, because I'm a lawyer and I studied politics, is I read the Constitution. I was really curious what really you.

Greg (00:08:15) - Read and you read it? Yeah.

Ed (00:08:16) - Real. Yeah. In 2000, after I got here, I read the Constitution, and I thought it was. I thought it was great. Like, I mean, it's actually significantly longer than the American Constitution, but I remember reading it thinking, wow, this is great. This is modern. it I thought it was fantastic. Wow.

Greg (00:08:32) - Interesting. I didn't know.

Ed (00:08:33) - That. Yeah. and, so there was just this air of optimism that Thailand had turned a corner, that they had a new constitution, a newly Democratic leader who was broadly popular. So at this stage, Thaksin was quite popular right now, in his first term, from 2000 to 2004, there was controversy, which we don't have to get into.

Ed (00:08:56) - So he wasn't just, you know, universally loved, there's no doubt about that. There was controversy. But in 2004, he was reelected pretty handily, like the 2004 election wasn't that close. And this was the first time in Thai history that there had been two democratic elections in a row that were not contested.

Greg (00:09:16) - Thinking about that, that's the first time in Thai history.

Ed (00:09:19) - That's right. Since 1932. Yeah. That's right.

Greg (00:09:22) - Elections in a row.

Ed (00:09:23) - Yeah. There never been two elections in a row before that had not been contested or that hadn't didn't, didn't result in a coup or a challenge. Right.

Greg (00:09:31) - So to be fair, Thailand's only had democracy since 1932. So it's not like it's a 200 year old system.

Ed (00:09:37) - That's right. And actually, a lot of the time since 1932, it's been under military rule. So this was a major turning point. And I remember, at this time I was teaching part time at Bangkok University, teaching political science, and I in general avoided Thai politics, but I wanted to use, Thailand as kind of an example or counter example to the West.

Ed (00:09:59) - And I remember talking about, Thaksin's reelection. And I basically told my students, you know, this is a really significant event. And a lot of people were saying that, the there would never be another coup like, so the idea was, hey, we had two democratic elections in a row. We've got a broadly popular leader. the economy was growing. There was controversy and some issues and some problems on the social issues and stuff like that. there was a horrible crackdown on drugs and things like that. So there was controversy. But the feeling really in 2004. 2005 is the Thailand was on the right track. Like this was the general feeling of of what was going on.

Greg (00:10:42) - I remember when I first got here, I saw time magazine, had a cover with Texan on it. That's right. And I was like, oh, this guy must be a pretty big deal. I didn't follow it closely back then.

Ed (00:10:52) - Yeah. And then and then Thaksin actually managed to pay back the money to the IMF, early, ahead of schedule.

Ed (00:11:00) - and which was one of his campaign promises. And so Thailand really seemed to be on, on like the a good road or a road to success. Now, the details leading up to the coup are not that important. but essentially that here's what I think, here's my theory of the whole thing is my, my theory basically is that Thaksin's reelection. It it basically meant that he was kind of too popular. I think this is what happened. and we can't there's certain things we can't talk about in detail, but I think essentially there's there's a power structure in Thailand and Elite, we can just call it an elite power structure with different factions. And they're kind of used to running the show. And although there have been civilian leaders before, I think those civilian leaders more or less were kind of like puppets. So there were civilian prime ministers before who were not generals and things like that. And they were they were the actual prime minister. But the bottom line is, I think they answered to certain elites and weren't super independent minded.

Ed (00:12:06) - Sure.

Greg (00:12:06) - Not unique to Thailand, of course. Okay.

Ed (00:12:08) - Of course. But the thing about one the one thing that's true about Thaksin, actually some some people have, referred to, Thaksin as Thailand's Trump, which which I don't think is really true. but but one way that it is true is the Thaksin is very much his own person. Like, he's got a very strong personality. He does things his own way. Yeah. he cannot be controlled or and he cannot control himself either. and, you know, Trump is obviously whatever you can say about Trump, is he definitely he's his own person and he cannot be controlled. Right. and and so I think my theory is that when Thaksin got re-elected, with all of its popularity, I think the power structure realized, wait a minute, this guy is not like previous civilian leaders. Like he's a genuinely independent. He's got the Democratic stamp of approval twice in a row. and I think this power structure realized, okay, we cannot control this guy.

Ed (00:13:09) - Right. and, and then I think he's.

Greg (00:13:11) - Outside of our sphere of traditional sphere. And I think.

Ed (00:13:14) - He began to represent, like, real change. Like genuine, real change, which I think the power structure did not want. So they, you know, they want you know, we did many shows on politics before, before the last election trying to explain it. So this whole idea of there being an elite here that they want really a facade of democracy, so they want Thailand to be seen as democratic, but they want to hold on to their elite status. So they don't want real democracy, which could mean they could lose their power. Right. So, so I think for for all you know, Thaksin is a guy that you can argue about forever. He I think he had some pros. He had some definite cons, like he's a he's a unique, controversial figure. But I think in the end he just could not be controlled. And so to me that was his downfall that he that he was he looked at himself as, hey, I have the mandate of the people.

Ed (00:14:09) - This is a democracy, so I'm the boss.

Greg (00:14:11) - He also did something that a lot of politicians had never done before. He to which was he looked at the the underclass, the traditionally ignored people largely in Nissan. But this sort of group of people, this economic group of people, this strata of, of society that has traditionally been not ignored but thought of last kind of thing. Well, yeah, I mean, he courted them, right?

Ed (00:14:32) - Oh for sure. I mean, this is a kind of a somewhat different topic, but part of it, one key to his electoral success is that he, he, he catered to farmers or the underclass, whatever you want to call them. And, you know, critics will say, okay, this is was was a cynical ploy to to win elections. But his supporters say no, he was just genuinely concerned about, you know, half the country or maybe even more that is usually ignored by the Bangkok elite. So again, like, I think Thaksin is one of those guys that you can have, you can argue about for like a long time.

Ed (00:15:05) - But in the end, what really was his downfall was his independence and his popularity. I think he became too popular. And he's just two independent minded in terms of his own personality that the, the, the, the people behind the scenes. And there's a many different factions that are just used to running the show. And so I think they began plotting against him and, the exact details. So there actually was a bit of a constitutional crisis going on. With Parliament. So there was kind of a legal stalemate. And and during this legal stalemate, Thaksin actually left the country to address the United Nations. So he was outside the country and the military launched a coup d'etat. So they they took the they took control of the government by force, although there was no bloodshed. So most coups in Thailand, most coup d'état have have been bloodless, or at least with very minimal bloodshed. So this was similar where the military seized control of kind of the, the, the mechanism of the government. And Thaksin tried to, fight back from the United States, in other words, by by issuing various orders and proclamations, moving generals around and things like that.

Ed (00:16:23) - But essentially, it didn't work. Right. and essentially we ended up with a military government. And so Greg and I have have stories from when this happened. And like, for me, it's very difficult to exaggerate how mindblowing it was. I mean, I, I mean, now you and I have been through another one. So we're kind of used to it, but we're old hands. Yeah. When I mean, when I woke up and got my copy of the Bangkok Post and it said coup d'Etat was the headline, I felt like I was on another planet.

Greg (00:16:51) - Yeah, it was crazy.

Ed (00:16:52) - It was. It was. I just didn't know what to think. I didn't know if I was even safe.

Greg (00:17:00) - I want to get back. We'll get back to that in a second. But I really would want to read this, this, this, few paragraphs here from a blog that I wrote years ago. And I just find this, this fascinating, not indulge me for a minute here.

Greg (00:17:11) - I'm going to read three paragraphs with this story here, and I think we'll find it pretty relevant. But. Here we go. I think it's worth reiterating what had led to this impasse after the lower classes were integrated into the political process and oligarchy of wealthy families on both sides of the original class divide found their interests generally aligned. There was a great deal of pressure from within this oligarchy not to sell one another out when internal disputes emerged. That is the rivalry between one side and the other side. They were not allowed to spill out into the lower socioeconomic orders. For hundreds of years, these families bred among themselves and protected the property and privilege their status afforded them. But after a while, the solidarity began to break down. The long wars had decimated the upper classes, and they had been repopulated by new families who were new to power and had no great loyalty to the old oligarchs. They identified with the masses and had no compunction about using popular causes as a means to leverage personal power. Suddenly, rather than ignoring the masses, politicians were proposing land reform and grain deals that flew in the face of everything in the old order stood for, because what the old order stood for more than anything else, was the monopolization of land and trade by a few select families.

Greg (00:18:17) - Into this environment stepped a powerful new politician, scion of a wealthy family who championed populist causes as a way to reach the top of the political ladder. He was a charismatic leader who should have been a strident defender of the privileges of the old order, but instead used his political skill to blow those orders up. Because of the betrayal, the conservative politicians hated him. They could see their way of life slipping away and were trying desperately to stem the tide of reform. And here was this enormously talented politician who ought to be helping them, not helping them, and instead making things even worse. And not only that, he seemed to enjoy watching them squirm, so they were eternally vigilant for the moment. They could turn the tables and watch him squirm for a change. I. I heard that on a podcast talking about Julius Caesar, and I thought it was so fascinating that, like, that could be that the story of what we just talked about now, to.

Ed (00:19:10) - Some extent, for sure.

Greg (00:19:11) - A lot of it, a lot of it, I think.

Ed (00:19:13) - I mean, this is why politics is a science, you know? So, you know, because history repeats itself. Yeah, exactly.

Greg (00:19:18) - I mean, I think that's so interesting.

Ed (00:19:20) - Oh, no doubt, as a, as I think Thailand's first true populist leader, Thaksin fits that same mold. I personally think he was bad at politics, so he was not a very good politician like he he was a businessman, a CEO. And I think if he was a slick like Bill Clinton, slick Willie, I think he could I think he, he would have realized that, like, a coup was coming. And, you know, I don't think Thaksin had very good political instincts. I think he he was more of a a businessman, which he would say this himself. So I think he unnecessarily stepped on a lot of toes. and so did Julius Caesar. Yeah. but, yeah. No, it's a good point. I mean, this is why politics is a science, but exactly.

Greg (00:20:02) - Because it's what comes around, and but.

Ed (00:20:05) - It's really just hard. I can't exaggerate how mindblowing it was to be here.

Greg (00:20:09) - How did you find out about it?

Ed (00:20:11) - Well, I woke up one morning and I, I bought I went out and, there was a 7-Eleven very close where I lived, and I bought a Bangkok Post. and it said Koo on the, on the, on the front page of the paper. And I was in a state of shock. And I walked back in and I and I saw that it happened at 11 p.m. the previous night that it was announced on TV. So I talked to my, my, my wife. And I was like, I was like, sweetie, why don't you why don't you wake me up? There's a coup. And she said, oh, you don't care about politics at all to.

Greg (00:20:42) - To her husband, the political science teacher.

Ed (00:20:44) - Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, oh I see. Yeah. No, it was mind blowing.

Ed (00:20:48) - And, and those first few days were weird, super, super weird.

Greg (00:20:53) - I was I was scared man. And we've we've talked about this briefly on the show before when I was growing up in history class and social studies class, when we heard the word coup, it was almost always followed by bloodshed, violence, riots in the streets. Right? Yeah. That's right. So I remember I was at home, I was on the 16th floor of my apartment in Yamaha in Chinatown, and I got a text message on my old Nokia phone, from from my buddy. And it said, FYI, tanks rolling out coup incoming or something like, oh, jeez. And I'm like, what? Where are you? And this was before Facebook, before Twitter, before any of this stuff.

Ed (00:21:26) - Yeah. This is something that an American guy in a Canadian guy, we can't process this like we were. We weren't designed for this.

Greg (00:21:32) - So I ran out of my balcony. I'm like, am I going to see guns, mortars going off, fireworks? Like it's going to be troops running through the street, totally silent.

Greg (00:21:39) - Nice rainy evening. Yeah. I went back to my phone. What do you mean? Oh yeah, I heard tanks. Tanks rolling in. Panic. Ran out to the other balcony. Nothing. Right, right, right. I didn't I had no idea what to expect.

Ed (00:21:49) - Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, I could talk to my wife about it. Am I wearing my, you know, my wife was shockingly calm about it, and so I kind of I began to learn that the Thai people's attitude is, given their own history, is a little bit different.

Greg (00:22:02) - So exactly. I called my girlfriend at the time and I was like, Holy shit, what's happening? And she was like, oh, probably, maybe. Who knows? It's just how things get done here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, well, if she's calm, maybe I should stop freaking out so much.

Ed (00:22:15) - But but I just had during the first couple of weeks, I had just had several really mind blowing experiences where I was.

Ed (00:22:22) - I would go out and walk down Sukhumvit and it it was not normal. So things were much, you know, not totally shut down, but but then but there were soldiers stationed on Sukhumvit and they were they basically look like boys, you know, it's like they don't look like dangerous men.

Greg (00:22:43) - 19 year old.

Ed (00:22:44) - Like me.

Greg (00:22:44) - 19 year old.

Ed (00:22:45) - It's like boys with M16s. And a lot of people were just taking pictures with them. Like, that was the thing to get a picture with, like Thai soldiers. So I have a picture somewhere with Thai soldiers on Sukhumvit. They're just smiling and taking pictures with people, right? It's so. It's so odd. It's just not the. It's not the Western version of a coup.

Greg (00:23:03) - Well, a lot of people call it the friendly coup or the friendliest coup, right? And there's photos. There were tanks, but they were mostly stationed around important military. That's right. Facilities, you know, the army bases and things like that. And there are photos of people putting flowers in the in the turrets of tanks.

Greg (00:23:19) - That's right. You know, and posing with the soldiers. And the soldiers were smiling and giving the little fingers up and.

Ed (00:23:24) - Stuff, too. But most haikus, not all of them. So there have been like some protests that got violent and bloody, of course. But most of the coups themselves, even the 1932 coup, what was almost completely bloodless, it's just it's a strange it's a Thai thing. It's just it's just the way, you know, like you said, it's kind of in the past. It's how political change happen in Thailand was through military intervention. Right. And it just took a while to, to to get my head around it and figure it out. Now, listeners, if you're not familiar. The history. essentially what happened is the the military government ended up, putting, Thaksin on trial. So he actually did return to the country for a little while, but then either while he was on trial or shortly after being convicted, he did flee and go into exile.

Ed (00:24:18) - So he left the country, and was out of the country for a very long time, just until last year, and finally came back last year. and so there's a whole continuing saga because subsequently his sister would become prime minister and then she would be overthrown in a coup. but it really was 2006. I mean, my so our first six years were entirely different. Like there was much less political drama. There were still some. But that coup in 2006, it really put Thailand on a totally different path of drama, like of the red shirt, yellow shirt, Bangkok shutdowns, right back and forth, protests like stuff getting burned down. Another coup like that was the beginning of the drama.

Greg (00:25:03) - It's funny how I mean, it sort of started ramping up around the world, I guess at that time, too, because before then you didn't really care. Politicians, you didn't hear about them because no one cared. Politicians were behind the doors, in the rooms, in meetings, doing politician things.

Greg (00:25:18) - No one cared. And I mean, I mean, you cared, but but now we find it where it's like. It's like celebrities almost. It's front page news. It's dominating the news cycle all the time.

Ed (00:25:29) - I mean, for someone who follows politics, I feel like it's always been that way, but but of course, it just it does go up and down. And to me in Thailand, it was just my first six years here. There were dramas, there were some scandals. But man, like that period, post-coup like 2008, 2010, 2012, there was just shutdowns, protests, block streets, bloodshed, bloodshed, bloodshed. but it began with that coup in 2006. And, you know, you know, there was a kind of constitutional legal crisis that led up to it. But I think that's that's window dressing. Like, to me, I just think Thaksin, he became too big for some good. I think that's what happened.

Greg (00:26:13) - Yeah, I think so too. There's there's definitely some arrogance built into that.

Greg (00:26:17) - You get that that rich and that powerful and there's well.

Ed (00:26:20) - Like.

Greg (00:26:21) - By Yasmin. That's right I.

Ed (00:26:22) - Think part I think he I mean the bottom line is I'm a rule of law guy. He won the election in 2000. He won the election in 2004. So I, I don't support the coup at all. but like I said, I do think that he wasn't a great politician. And I think he, he's he's kind of a stubborn Chinese Thai businessman, and he has a strong personality and I and I don't think he I don't think he was a very good politician. Like, I think he was okay policy wise, which is a whole nother thing to talk about. So I think he had some good ideas. but I do think his personality was part of the reason that the, the, the elites, like, couldn't put up with him. Yeah.

Greg (00:27:03) - And like I said, we're we're seeing this not just in Thailand too, but we're sort of seeing these, these dynasties. Right? I mean, right now, his daughter Jackson's daughter is not prime minister, but she's head of the head of the political.

Ed (00:27:15) - Party, like the successor party. Yeah. So, so.

Greg (00:27:18) - The that in Cambodia, you have, Hun Sen's son is now the prime minister. That's right. In the Philippines, you have Bongbong Marcos. You know, his father was the former prime minister that was overthrown in a coup decades ago. So it's sort of it's interesting to see these sort of dynasties be reestablished after.

Ed (00:27:35) - Well, interestingly, Singapore just ended its dynasty, so it just got a new prime minister. That's the first one that's not a member of like, Lee Kuan Yu's family.

Greg (00:27:43) - Yeah. Singapore plays by its own rules. Yeah.

Ed (00:27:46) - Well, so this show we're doing now is not the whole story. it's just it's just the 2006 coup. But it really was. I think it's the most I mean, you know, there were there have been tragedies like we just recently did a show on the tsunami. so there's a lot of other. Major things that have happened in the last 20 years since we've been here. But I really think the 2006 coup, it changed.

Ed (00:28:10) - It put Thailand on a different path. But I wonder.

Greg (00:28:13) - Why. Like it was it was it the sheer force of personalities involved? Why did people get so wrapped up into this, and why is it still resonating?

Ed (00:28:22) - Well, I mean, I you know, you have my answer. I just I just think, I think Thaksin could not be controlled. And he he began to I don't think he was he himself was super progressive. I think the current parties like Move Forward are more progressive in terms of policy wise. and that's that's part of the reason why move forward. and Peta like, is not prime minister now. Like instead it's Thaksin successor party which is not as progressive. Right. You know. Right. But I think he he represented a certain type of progress that certain people didn't want and certain factions didn't want. But they, like you said, I think it was it was his, his personality. Like I said, he he's very different from Trump in some ways, but in other ways he's like Trump in that he was his own man.

Ed (00:29:10) - He is his own man. And that's not the model for democracy in Thailand up to that point. Right? The model for democracy was there was a civilian guy who kind of does what the guys in the back want.

Greg (00:29:21) - Well, he'll he'll be the figurehead.

Ed (00:29:22) - That's right. Yeah. That's right.

Greg (00:29:23) - But they seem to have learned from that. Right. Like he, he maybe bit off more than he could chew or push too hard.

Ed (00:29:28) - I think so.

Greg (00:29:29) - And now they're like, oh okay. We can't move that fast. We have to go baby steps. So maybe his sister tried to do the same thing, and now his daughter is taking a more pragmatic, slower approach where she's maybe leading from the back, but still very much a player.

Ed (00:29:43) - Yeah, we'll see how it, how it pans out, because the story is quite complicated. You know, it's like the bottom line is 2000 to 2006 was like the simple time and then post 2006, like typology, Thai politics just gets so complex.

Ed (00:29:59) - Yeah. Like maybe maybe I guess at some point we'll do a show on that on the 2014 coup or maybe the maybe just the Bangkok shutdown. Like, I can't even keep it straight because there were multiple different shutdowns. Right.

Greg (00:30:11) - Just but you know, when 7-Eleven puts newspapers over its windows. Yeah. Shit's going.

Ed (00:30:15) - Down.

Greg (00:30:16) - That's right, that's right. And it's funny because I know we're going to get emails from I'm thinking of one particular listener, but probably a few. You know who you are out there? people still hate taxing, like he's evil personified.

Ed (00:30:28) - Well, I'm saying he I think he's a controversial figure. That's all I'm going to say. Like, I never thought of him as, Doctor Evil, but I totally, I totally agree, like, he's a controversial figure, and we can argue about that, but, that's not the topic of the show, and it's just it's just this. At least, I don't know. I've got my explanation. I don't think it was, per se, mistakes he made.

Ed (00:30:51) - So I personally don't buy, you know, the classic, antiThaksin attitude is that he caused his own problems by being super, super corrupt. I've never, ever believed that. And I'm not saying he he's corruption free. I'm not sure anyone in Thai politics is corruption free, but that simple explanation of he had to be overthrown because they're super corrupt. I never bought that for a second. I've never seen good evidence for that. even after reading, like, the legal cases. so I've got my own theory, which just basically that he became he became too popular and unmanageable. So I'm curious listeners out there, I don't consider him, I, I definitely don't consider myself an expert on Thai politics. So any listener out there curious to hear what you what you have to say about the 2006 coup?

Greg (00:31:38) - An interesting man. Yeah. And, that's where we got our coup. Cherry popped.

Ed (00:31:45) - That sounds weird, but I'll take it. Yeah.

Greg (00:31:46) - And then, 2014 was good. But it's funny how, you know, like, we see, this is another lesson in learning how to live in Thailand by Thai rules.

Greg (00:31:55) - Because from a Western through a Western lens, we were freaking out. That's right. But the Thais were like, yeah, yeah, whether I disagree or not, this is just how things roll up. Yeah, but.

Ed (00:32:05) - 2014 I was still shocked by the 2014 one, but I, I was much less worried and scared.

Greg (00:32:10) - Right? Yeah. I guess all credit to Thai people and for keeping their heads on. And like we say in times of crisis, people still got to go to work. People still got families to raise.

Ed (00:32:20) - Well, if people are good at anything, it's keeping cool.

Greg (00:32:23) - That's right, that's right. Interesting discussion man. And, they're going to be talking about that particular coup and time and Thai history for many, many years to come for sure. Big turning point. All right. Let's get into some love, loathe or live with where one of us picks a particular aspect of living in Bangkok, which we then discuss to decide if it's something we love about living here, loathe about living here, or have come to accept as something that we just have to live with no matter how we feel about it.

Greg (00:32:45) - And add this week, it's over to you.

Ed (00:32:47) - All right, man, dude, I'm going to go with an old classic. This is an ultimate expat experience. We've all been there, and I know we've talked about it before, but I think it was years ago. So let's talk about it again. You're walking down the street, a couple massage. Parlors here and there. Some cute girls sitting by the side of the road. I'm with you. And one of them yells out, handsome man, handsome man! It's happened to all of us. What's your reaction?

Greg (00:33:14) - Completely stonewall and ignore it.

Ed (00:33:17) - You don't feel anything.

Greg (00:33:19) - What I feel is I want to turn around to them. And in really good Thai. Say, look, you've been saying this because you were taught to say it, and the person that taught you to say it was probably taught to say it, and so on and so on and so on. It's 50 years old now. You got to get a better sales pitch.

Greg (00:33:32) - But then I want to brainstorm with these women, like sit down and be like, okay, let's workshop this. You got to come up with a better pitch than Handsome Man because I think it's stupid. Everyone knows it. It's hollow. It doesn't mean anything. You don't think.

Ed (00:33:43) - You're overthinking it. You don't get a bit of an ego boost. You're not like, yeah, I'm kind of handsome.

Greg (00:33:47) - I'm definitely overthinking it. No, I don't get an ego boost. I think it's ridiculous. It's silly. It's just. It's like, well, of course it might as well be a button on a machine. They press click. Handsome man. Handsome man. Maybe.

Ed (00:33:58) - How do you know? They say handsome men to everyone. Maybe they're picking and choosing. Maybe you're the only guy. They said handsome man to that day. Yeah. No.

Greg (00:34:05) - Come on, I'm smarter than that. No, they say it to everyone in the past is by on the off. Hope that one of them maybe you walks by and goes me handsome.

Greg (00:34:14) - Oh, wow. I'm flattered. What do you mean by that?

Ed (00:34:18) - Well, to me, it's okay. So to me, it's one of those things that I feel like it should annoy me, but I don't know, I just get a bit of a chuckle. I just chuckle like it should be annoying. Like for like, we've talked before about various repetitive things like I detest the frog thing. Like, you know, we've talked about it many times. Just the sound of that frog tchotchke things. Yeah, I detest it, but but the handsome man thing, it's worth a chuckle. Man, I hate it.

Greg (00:34:49) - It gets it gets me thinking about, like, how to how to pitch an idea. Like I think I've said before, like I want to if I was walking down the street and a girl stepped into my path and said, hey, Big Daddy, what's going on tonight? I can show you some good times. I'd be like, all right, now we're talking now.

Greg (00:35:04) - Something unique. He's exactly like, I appreciate the effort that went into it. Still no, but I still appreciate the effort. But Handsome Man is just lazy.

Ed (00:35:13) - Okay, I can't say I'm a love. I'm gonna live with, but you apparently are loathe.

Greg (00:35:17) - Loathe, slash completely ignore.

Ed (00:35:21) - All right, a final thanks to our patrons who support the show. Patrons get a ton of cool perks and the warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that they're helping and are never ending. Quest for cool content? Find out more by clicking support on our website and connect with us online. Where Bangkok podcasts on social media Bangkok podcast. Com on the web or simply Bangkok Podcast at gmail.com. We love hearing from our listeners and always reply to our messages.

Greg (00:35:48) - That's right. You can also listen to each episode on YouTube. You can send us a voicemail to our website that will feature on the show. Hit me up on threads at VK. Greg, thanks for listening everyone. Watch out for Skynet and we'll see you back here next week.

Greg (00:35:59) - No doubt.