Phra Pandit Lends His Insight: What Buddhism Says About the Seven Deadly Sins - Part 2 [S7.E31]

Greg 00:00:05 On part two of two. We welcome back our friend Prop Pandit to discuss what Buddhism says about the seven deadly sins.

Ed 00:00:12 So if you want to hear what eastern religious ideals say about Western rules against sin, you'll learn a lot on this episode of the Bangkok Podcast.

Greg 00:00:36 Sawatdee Krap, and welcome to the Bangkok Podcast. My name is Greg Jorgensen, a Canadian who came to Thailand in 2001 because I ran afoul of the flannel mafia, and they started sending me pieces of an old shirt in the mail. And as the old saying goes, you can't fight City Hall or the flannel mafia.

Ed 00:00:52 True that, true that. And I made Knuth an American who came to Thailand on a one year teaching contract 23 years ago. Fell in love with cute little Thai lizards that always seem to be looking at me no matter where I went, so I never left.

Greg 00:01:06 I love those things.

Ed 00:01:06 I know like I've. I never understood why they freak some people out. I think they're kind of cute.

Greg 00:01:12 I do too. We have one in our kitchen. We call him Bob and. Oh, you've been there. He Every once in a while I'll be sitting on this. So I'll be sitting somewhere and I'll hear my son go, hi, Bob. Oh that's great. Say hi, Bob. And it's been there for like ten years. Oh, clearly it's not the same one, but I guess there's like a family of them or something.

Ed 00:01:29 Classic, classic. I love it, Bob. All right. We want to give a big thanks to all of our patrons who support the show. Patrons get every episode a day early, behind the scenes photos of our interviews, a heads up to send questions to upcoming guests and access to our discord server to chat with me, Greg, and other listeners around the world. But best of all, patrons also get an unscripted, uncensored bonus episode every week where we riff on current events and Bangkok topics. On this week's bonus show, we chatted about an ad from Apple that takes place in Bangkok that some have called out for making the city look bad and whether it's deserving of all the kerfuffle, my upcoming trip back home for our high school reunion, and what I expect that to be like after being an expat for so long.

Ed 00:02:16 And a new bill proposed by parliamentarian and former guest Khun Tao, that will legalize sex toys and pornography in Thailand, to learn how to become a patron and get all this good stuff, plus full access to over 700 bonus and regular back episodes. Click the support button at the top of our website.

Greg 00:02:37 That's right. And as always, if you have a comment to show, idea or just want to say hi, head to Bangkok podcast.com and click the little microphone button on the bottom right to leave us a voicemail that we will play on the show. All right. On part two of two, we welcome a fan favorite guest back to the show, but with a twist. I am, of course, talking about our venerable friend Phra Pandit, who you may remember from last week, is talking to us all the way from the Great White North itself, my home of Canada.

Greg 00:03:07 Now, I've been thinking about this question for a while, and probably after my 300th or so viewing of the movie seven. That's Se7en, and of course, but I really wanted to know what Buddhism says about the seven deadly sins and whether or not whatever it said was that much different from how Western countries parse it. So there's only one guy I can think of to help us out here. So I called up our friend Prop Panda to give us a little bit of help with the issue. So here is my conversation with our friend prop handed all the way from Canada. moving on to. Hey, look, another one of my favorites. this is sloth. And, sloth refers to a particular jumble of notions dating from antiquity. It may be defined as absence of interest or habitual disinclination to exertion. Oh, that's a complex way of saying laziness. But is there anything in Buddhism about that?

Phra Pandit 00:04:06 Yeah, I like that disinclination. so sloth and torpor in Buddhism is called Namita, but this is something it's not considered bad in society necessarily. but it is something that hinders meditation. So to attain to the higher, brighter, clearer states of meditation where these like supernatural insights start to occur.

Phra Pandit 00:04:33 One of the things that blocks you from that is sloth and torpor, which is also translated as indolence, which I like. Indolence has the connotation of I don't want to do it or just a reluctance. so I was with somebody a few days ago and we had to go and meet her teenage daughter, and a teenage daughter was changing her shoes and wouldn't do up her shoelaces. And we were like, do up your shoelaces, you'll fall over. And she's like, yeah, whatever, man. And it's like, she just didn't want to, like, have any spark there, which is funny. And she went kind of slouching off with this thing. So, yeah. Indolence, is when it's a lack of enthusiasm, it's a, you know, a non direction. I think a lot of us had this through Covid, right? You just sit in your room and you get accustomed to just like not having to do things and then even just meeting somebody or just getting a loaf of bread or something just becomes like too much effort.

Phra Pandit 00:05:45 But it's very much this is very much a Protestant thing, right? Protestants had this Protestant work ethic, like being lazy or unproductive is sinful, whereas Catholic countries didn't really have that interpretation.

Greg 00:05:59 But, but, but in Buddhism it says that this is not a good thing, because then you neglect to to do your meditation and your, your, your chores and your task.

Phra Pandit 00:06:07 Sloth is specifically something that hinders the brighter, higher states that you attain to in meditation. but I've not seen it really applied to to regular day life. The Buddha did say you should work, and you should put, one quarter aside for giving away to others, one quarter aside for the future. And then you can use half of whatever you produce.

Greg 00:06:35 There's actually on this Wikipedia page, there's actually a lot written about this. And one of it says emotionally and cognitively, the evil of acedia, or sloth finds expression in a lack of any feeling for the world, for the people in it, or for the self. Acedia takes form as an alienation of the sentient self, first from the world and then from itself.

Greg 00:06:56 Well that's deep.

Phra Pandit 00:06:59 Yeah. That, indolence. So there is a teaching in Buddhism of attachment causes suffering. Therefore we should be attached. So then some people kind of wander around in this fake religious haze, like, I don't care about anything. I don't care about people. I don't care about wearing shoes. I don't care about money. I don't care about my future. I don't care about my health. I'm unattached, man, and that's completely bogus, right? So detachment in that sense is not a good thing in Buddhism or in any other philosophy. Yeah. Right.

Greg 00:07:37 Right. Interesting. All right. Onto wrath. And this says wrath can be defined as uncontrolled feelings of anger, rage, and even hatred. Roth often reveals itself in the wish to seek vengeance. What do you think about that?

Phra Pandit 00:07:54 Yeah, I was in the taxi in Bangkok, and this guy is a very simple route. We go down one highway and we turn right, and then we end up where I live.

Phra Pandit 00:08:05 And he got up onto the the overpass on the bridge, and it's going towards Big Cloud Bridge. And once you're up on that overpass, it takes going to take you ten miles. You can't get off it. And so I was furious when I realized he'd got knocked onto this overpass. I was furious, like, don't you know the way I told him the way to go when I got in the taxi? So eventually he comes down at bingo and he turns around and I said, right, go back, turn left on Anthony Wong. And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I turned my mind off again. Next time I look up, he'd gone past that turn off. So I was furious. And then we had to go up to ratchet and then go round ratchet prick. And I had to guide him turn by turn. so three times he went the wrong direction and it was close to 11:00, which is my feeding time. And if I miss feeding time, I don't eat for another 24 hours.

Phra Pandit 00:09:03 So I was getting pretty irate by this time. And he was you know, it seems to me that he's just racking up a fair by going round a long way. Anyway, when we got to the temple, he said, sorry about that. No charge.

Greg 00:09:20 Wow.

Phra Pandit 00:09:21 So all my wrath and anger just dissipated in that instance. And it is. It's like that anger is is illusionary. It will really call you in and wrap you up and make you feel righteous, but it is an illusion. and anyway, I had to pay the driver because he had spent an hour and a half going the wrong way. It's still an hour and a half of his time. Fuel. So, yeah, the anger is never a good solution.

Greg 00:09:53 This is, Henry Edward Manning considers that angry people are slaves to themselves. Which sounds like something that Buddhism would probably, attempt to to to quantify or qualify or address, at least.

Phra Pandit 00:10:08 Right. But it described it as picking up hot coals to throw up people.

Phra Pandit 00:10:12 It burns. You first.

Greg 00:10:15 Interesting.

Phra Pandit 00:10:16 And like drinking poison and hoping someone else will die. So if you're mindful, you look at the feeling and the effect of anger in yourself. Divorced from the thing that you are angry at. So if you are angry at a person, forget about that person. You turn your attention onto the anger itself. Then you are separated from anger. That's something that afflicts you, not something that you are doing because you picked it up mindfully to look at. So same with all these emotions. Separate greed from what you are greedy for. And look at the nature of greed. And that's the only way to really understand emotions.

Greg 00:10:57 Fantastic. Okay. All right, two more left. The next one is envy. Envy is characterized by an insatiable desire, like greed and lust. It can be described as a sad or resentful covetousness towards the traits or possessions of someone else. It comes from vainglory and severs a man from his neighbor.

Phra Pandit 00:11:18 Yeah, there's a note. Envy and jealousy are different, but, the word jealousy gets misused as envy.

Phra Pandit 00:11:25 Jealousy is when you have something and you don't want other people to share in it. Envy is when they have something and you think you deserve a slice.

Greg 00:11:36 Okay, I see.

Phra Pandit 00:11:37 Very often people use the word jealousy when actually they mean envy. I've noticed I saw this in the news. There was, a thing about a guy who had been called names. He was a plumber and his work colleagues have been calling him names. I think it was half dead, Dave, because he was quite old and his name is Dave, so but this is just normal. I've worked as a welder and I was called the effing Pommy Bastard. That was my name. It was in New Zealand, and that's just what men do with each other. Anyway, he sued for this and he won a big payout for being just for being called a name. And then his boss, who never called him a name, decided to take the money out of everybody else's wages. So then they said, it's not fair because this guy said it more than I said it.

Phra Pandit 00:12:35 But none of the staff said, it's not fair that my boss should pay it. Because that also wasn't fair. So have you noticed that when people say it's not fair, what they really mean is I want a slice. You know, I shouldn't be made to suffer, or I want to get a piece of the goodness or the money or the cake.

Greg 00:12:55 Interesting.

Phra Pandit 00:12:56 So I've been reflecting a lot on this. It's not fair thing because life isn't fair. Some. If you're not born with the right body, you can't be a boxer. If you're beautiful, you can be a model. And if you're not, then you can't be a model. If you're seven foot tall, you can be a basketball player. If you're five foot tall, you can't. I mean, life isn't fair, and we build our expectations of the world from our interactions with our parents from an early age. So when your brother gets something that you that and you don't get it, you say to your parents, it's not fair.

Phra Pandit 00:13:34 You have an expectation that your parents will be fair between you, and then you take that out into the world. And that's why all these kids are coming out of university with social justice on their mind, like it's not fair. Well, life isn't fair. And then as they get older and they start to learn that I work and I pay my bills, and I save my money and I buy my house. So they get more interested in property rights than they do in fairness. Well, life isn't fair. And so it seems to me this modern, the modern slant of current society in terms of social justice is saying that I should have a slice of the national pie, and if somebody has something more than me, it's not fair.

Greg 00:14:22 It sounds like communism to me.

Phra Pandit 00:14:24 Somebody has something and I want it. So I say, it's not fair. I have a right to their thing.

Greg 00:14:31 There was a great little scene in one of Louis K's television shows that he did a bunch of years ago, and he's got his two daughters, and they have they each have a bowl of food and one looks in the other bowl and she says he she has more than me.

Greg 00:14:43 That's not fair. And Louis says you should never look in someone else's bowl and say that the only reason you should look in someone else's bowl is to make sure they have as much as you. I thought that was surprisingly deep.

Phra Pandit 00:14:57 He's. Louis C.K. is a very good observer, as many comedians are very good observer of human nature. Yeah, I saw one on YouTube where it's clearly acted out, but the one kid does a load of chores around the house, and the mother comes and pays that kid $50 for doing the chores. And then as she puts $50 in the kid's hands, she takes $30 out back out of the kid's hand and gives it to her sister, who hadn't done any chores and said, the first kid said, that's not fair. And the mother said, no, that's socialism.

Greg 00:15:41 How dare you stay? Say that from the capital of Canada.

Phra Pandit 00:15:45 The capitalist, socialist, socialist Paradise here in Canada. Yeah.

Greg 00:15:51 Interesting.

Phra Pandit 00:15:52 So that was N.B. and the final one is pride.

Phra Pandit 00:15:56 Right?

Greg 00:15:58 Now pride, also known as hubris or futility, is considered the original and worst of the seven deadly sins on almost every list, the most demonic. It is also thought to be the source of all the other capital sins. Pride has been labeled the mother of all sins and has been deemed the devil's most essential trait. The position in which the ego and the self are directly opposed to God.

Phra Pandit 00:16:22 So what do you think? Do you think pride is terrible? Or do you take pride in your children? Do you take pride in your house and your job? Do you take pride in paying your bills and riding your bike and keeping fit? What do you think? Is pride a bad thing?

Greg 00:16:41 Well, it's funny because as our as we've had this discussion tonight, it's sort of it's sort of showed me that there's a lot of similarities between, you know, Western and Eastern thought about these things and that it's sort of, everything in moderation. Right? Like greed is good up to a point, or the desire is good up to a point.

Greg 00:16:59 But when it tips over into greed, that's when bad things happen. Pride is not a bad thing. I'm. I'm proud of the things I've done. I'm proud that I've built a life for myself in Bangkok and of my kid, like you said. But when it becomes too much and then it gets into, you know, it can tip into the other sins quite easily.

Phra Pandit 00:17:19 I think pride can leave you easily offended, right? Which is another modern trait because you want respect and admiration from people, and if they don't respect or admire you, you take them to court. If you're cold hearted, it's interesting if you go to court because it's not fair. I was called a name and it's hurt my pride hurt my feelings.

Greg 00:17:42 This is interesting. It says the modern use of pride may be summed up in the biblical proverb, A pride goeth before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. The pride that blinds causes foolish acts and actions against common sense. So yeah, a little bit is okay.

Greg 00:17:58 But if you let it, if you let it envelop you, then then you can be blinded to rationality and but but pride as it relates to a sin. It's funny because on the Wikipedia page here, it's got the most written about it, but I'm finding it hard to sort of even see how it could be a sin. I guess if it's if it's overdone, it can lead to other. It can tip over, like I said, into the other sins. But in and of itself, I think it's probably a maybe even a good thing.

Phra Pandit 00:18:29 Yeah. You should take some pride in your appearance. You should tie your shoelaces.

Greg 00:18:35 All right, well.

Phra Pandit 00:18:36 If I can give you the there is an alternative list in Buddhism which is quite quick and easy to explain. It's called hatred and delusion. And there are three. And the reason there are three is because anything that you can cognize, or sense or think of will automatically carry with it a quality of liking, disliking, or neutral. So if you are a person who focuses on what you dislike, This is called a hate type in Buddhism, but it means that you tend to focus on things that you dislike.

Phra Pandit 00:19:13 And this is my own kind of character. And so you would think of problems in the world. It's very good for problem solving. So I get stuck in Bangkok traffic, and I invented a new traffic system for Bangkok called the, Naga Serpent bus, where it dips onto the road and I. So this is the mind that that continually focuses on what it dislikes. And people who do this will tend to ruminate over the past. Okay, again, with every sensory input or thought or cognition, you some of it will carry the quality of liking. So people who have the characteristic that they focus on, things that they like will be greed based people. So we call it greed. And so they will have if they practice the holy life, they will be someone of great faith, but they will tend to be projecting into the future of the things that they want to get. So they will be future based personality. And then delusion is people who focus on things that they neither like nor dislike.

Phra Pandit 00:20:25 That is just kind of like TV or reading the newspapers or conversations, things that don't really mean anything that you're not invested in. You just like to turn off your consciousness and you know, your your self-awareness. So in Buddhism, those are the three main, poisons they're called. They're not called deadly sins. They're called the three poisons. And so that greed, hatred and delusion. But it means you focus on things that you like. Or do you focus on things that you dislike, or do you focus on things that are neutral but will turn off your self-awareness. So those are the three sins in Buddhism. Yeah, well.

Greg 00:21:11 That gives me something to think about. And we maybe we could turn this into a series of shows, and then we can cover the seven virtues and see what you say about those. And those are prudence, justice, temperance and fortitude with the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity. How's that?

Phra Pandit 00:21:28 Cool. We have ten of these qualities in Buddhism, but there you go.

Greg 00:21:34 Take from that what you will. Well propounded. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for the conversation. Always insightful and always interesting chatting with you. And, I hope you, and continue to enjoy not working in Canada. Stay warm and find yourself a 7-Eleven when you need it.

Phra Pandit 00:21:51 Okay, cool. Thanks for having me back.

Ed 00:22:05 Well, that was fascinating, as always. It's weird. It's weird. After having him as a guest on the show so many times, I still have a lot of questions for him. Like it just. It's just like the life of a monk is so different than a normal person. And having having a native English speaker that knows Buddhism so well. it's just, I don't know, I feel like it's endless. It's endless. The stuff I want to talk to him about.

Greg 00:22:29 What I find really interesting about about hanging out with, with him at any time, is that it's so funny because he seems amused by the fact that us laymen think what he does is so unusual or unique, I think, he's just like, well, why would I just sit around? And then I study and I talk and I do the same thing you do.

Greg 00:22:47 I have friends and I go places and I go to restaurants.

Ed 00:22:50 Right, right, right.

Greg 00:22:52 You know, but again, I think it's a part of it is just maybe as Westerners who have grown up in that, you know, Judeo-Christian structure, we have a really hard time of, of, of seeing monks as just sort of.

Ed 00:23:04 Regular.

Greg 00:23:04 People. Regular people, for sure. You know, I mean, to apply, apply a level of piety to them that might for sure.

Ed 00:23:10 No, I mean, he definitely comes across he comes across as a regular guy for sure. He's very approachable. But I don't know, I'm I'm endlessly fascinated, like you said. Like, I'm sure he probably thinks it's weird that that we are so curious about what he's doing, but I just I have to admit it, I find it fascinating.

Greg 00:23:28 Right. Well, we talked about it last week real quick, too, and I think this sort of solidified it is that I think, my, my big takeaway from these two shows is that just, there's not a really a hell of a lot of difference.

Greg 00:23:41 I mean, there's little differences in perceptions and, and, and and context and rules and things like that. But pretty much basically it seems that it all boils down to just try to be nice and respectful and decent.

Ed 00:23:54 Well, you know, it didn't really come up in in your interview with him, but I do talk about this stuff in some of my classes. And so when it comes to like kind of general moral rules, which is what this focused on, you know, there is a lot of similarity. But in terms of like rituals, there's big differences, you know, like if you think of, to me, the one that just blows my mind, is just circumcision. And it's just like, can you imagine what it would be like to be from a culture or religion that didn't have super circumcision? It must seem like so strange and bizarre. You know what I mean? So? So there are major differences between religions.

Greg 00:24:36 Now all I can think about is the comedians clip.

Greg 00:24:38 Years ago, I saw where he's like the first guy that discovered circumcision. You know, it must have been like 5000 years ago before they had iron instruments or something. Oh, jeez. Guys, look what I did with this rock.

Ed 00:24:48 Yeah, I don't want to think about it. maybe I'll cut that. But, it's funny that. I mean, so when it comes to, like, the culture of religions, there's like a lot of differences. But when it comes to, like, moral prohibitions, it's. I mean, they're obviously our differences, like the number of wives and things like that. So there are differences, but it's more similar than you would think.

Greg 00:25:11 Right. And I wonder if those rituals are really what is the core, what really matters, you know, like eating the Eucharist and the bread and the wine. Right. you know, like, is that really as important as the sort of the more elements of, of, of, of Christianity or Catholicism or something like that, or is it just sort of like fringe elements, add ons, you know, like, well, no.

Ed 00:25:32 Well, the religion the religions themselves would insist the rituals are extremely important. So according to, according to the doctrines of like Catholicism or Judaism, like you have to do these things right. But I think from, from an outside view, like it seems like just the moral guidelines should be the most important thing.

Greg 00:25:51 I would think so, but I guess we'll have to get God on the show, or Buddha or or whoever else to ask them what they think.

Ed 00:25:58 We'll work on that. Let's work on that.

Greg 00:26:00 Yeah, it might be a bit out of our pay grade, but we'll see what we can do anyway. Thank you prop handed for coming on. Always a fascinating. Thank you.

Greg 00:26:06 And I hope, you're not, not getting too cold there. I'm glad you got your saffron turtleneck to keep you warm by the great white North. All right, let's get into some lovely weather. Live with where one of us picks a particular aspect of living in Bangkok, which we discussed to decide if it's something we love about living here, loathe about living here, or have come to accept as something that we just have to learn to live with no matter how we feel about it.

Greg 00:26:29 Now, this week it is actually my turn, but I'm going to default to a suggestion from one of our patrons on discord, our buddy Dante, and he sent a message and he asked this. He said, what is your take on the militaristic way the security guards at malls or your own condos greets you when you pass by? I think he's talking about the like, kaboom! And then the click with the little metal plates on their boots and the salute and everything they do.

Ed 00:26:53 Yeah, they do sometimes salute to. Right. Yeah.

Greg 00:26:56 Right. Like it's a full on like I am I a general here. What's going on? That's right. what's your take on this? Is this a love loader live with.

Ed 00:27:05 This is a great question. it's like for for me or for most Westerners, it probably seems way overly formal, and we don't really do that kind of stuff outside of a military situation. so to me, on the one hand, it's obviously not necessary. And it does make me feel uncomfortable in the sense that I'm undeserving.

Ed 00:27:29 I'm undeserving of such a salute. But then on the flip side, I think it means this person is taking their job seriously and they seem to want to do it. You know, it's like to me they're almost upping their own importance by acting so professionally. You know what I'm saying?

Ed 00:27:49 So I'm definitely not a loathe although it it is kind of awkward and and kind of weird and unnecessary, you know, to me. I'm not sure I'd say love, but. So I think I'm just more of, like, a live with, like, I, I think I'm it's kind of good that they care so much that they're taking it this seriously.

Greg 00:28:11 Yeah, I would agree. I'm, I'm a live with as well. I think it's it's unnecessary and it's a bit overkill. And again like I'm just a I'm just a guy. I don't need a click and a salute from you.

Ed 00:28:20 But,

Greg 00:28:21 You know, this this is related to the old question of, of when your security guards are too strict with visitors and things like that.

Greg 00:28:28 Oh, right.

Ed 00:28:28 Sure.

Greg 00:28:29 It can be a bit annoying sometimes, but the alternative is where they don't care and just let anyone in to, like, for instance, steal your bicycle. That's right. That's right.

Ed 00:28:37 So.

Greg 00:28:38 So I would rather them on the side of being a bit more right than they need to be. So yeah, I guess I'm fine with it. It's a bit weird, but I don't necessarily love it, but I don't loathe it either. So I'm going to have to say live with.

Ed 00:28:50 Yeah, I'm gonna live with. I remember when I first encountered this, I thought it was kind of ridiculous and kind of laughable, but then I just saw how it really means someone is taking their job seriously. So, you know, I kind of I've calmed down a bit and I'm, I think I'm gonna live with as well.

Greg 00:29:06 Where we've come down in our old age. Yeah. That's right. Thanks. That was a good suggestion.

Ed 00:29:10 Good one, good one.

Ed 00:29:11 Alrighty. A final thanks to all of our patrons who support the show. Patrons get a ton of cool perks and the warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that they're helping and are never ending. Quest for cool content. Find out more by clicking support on our website and connect with us online. Where Bangkok podcast on social media Bangkok podcast.com on the web or simply Bangkok Podcast at gmail.com. We love hearing from our listeners and always reply to our messages fo sho.

Greg 00:29:41 You can also listen to each episode on YouTube. You can send us a voicemail through our website that will feature on the show. I am on threads at BCC. Greg. Thank you for listening everyone and we will see you back here next week. No doubt. That's right.