Redefining What A Modern Family Means in Thailand [S7.E56]

Greg 00:00:05 On this episode, we talked to our friends Jacob and Gang about the future of families in Thailand.

Ed 00:00:11 So if you're interested in hearing how Thailand's new marriage equality law will shape the future of Thailand, you'll love this episode of the Bangkok Podcast.

Greg 00:00:36 So what the crap? And welcome to the Bangkok Podcast. My name is Greg Jorgensen, a Canadian who came to Thailand to live the red green dream because of the women don't find you handsome. They should at least find you handy. And that is a deep cut Canadian joke right there.

Ed 00:00:50 It's so deep I have no idea what it means.

Greg 00:00:52 I'll explain later.

Ed 00:00:55 And I'm Ed Knuth, an American who came to Thailand on a one year teaching contract 24 years ago, fell in love with celebrating three New Years. Every year the Western, the Chinese and the Thai. So I never left.

Greg 00:01:09 But you only get the Thai New Year and the Western New Year off, not the Chinese New Year. There's no holidays for that.

Ed 00:01:15 Officially? Yeah.

Ed 00:01:15 Officially. Unofficially, the city kind of semi shuts down.

Greg 00:01:21 Yeah, I guess actually, that's why. That's probably why traffic was really good this week. Not to mention not to mention the work at home suggestion for everyone. So.

Ed 00:01:28 You know, New Year's in general is not some great super important holiday, but basically more holidays is better. You know, I feel like a a Roman citizen that, you know, the emperor is just throwing us a bone, like, let's have a feast. Let's have another feast. Let's have another feast.

Greg 00:01:44 Games. Gladiators. Feasts.

Ed 00:01:46 That's right, that's Thailand. That's Thailand right there. All right. We want to give you big thanks to all of our patrons who support the show. Patrons get every episode a day early. Behind the scenes photos of our interviews, a heads up to send questions to upcoming guests and access to our discord server. To chat with me, Greg and other listeners around the world. But best of all, patrons also get an unscripted, uncensored bonus episode every week where we riff on current events and Bangkok topics on this week's bonus show.

Ed 00:02:18 We chatted about the same thing we chatted about every January the crappy air season. My experience working on the podcast of our friend pilot from Hot Thai Kitchen. The fact that Timeout named Bangkok as the second best city to live in in the world, and why Greg was unable to send a small Thai flag, so on patches to his friend in Canada to learn how to become a patron and get all this good stuff, plus full access to over 700 bonus and regular back episodes. Click the support button at the top of our website.

Greg 00:02:53 FYI, for everyone out there, sending Thai flags out of Thailand for bidden Cannot do it.

Ed 00:02:58 Prohibited.

Greg 00:02:59 That's right. That's right. And don't forget, if you listen to us on Spotify, you can now hear all the bonus shows there as well. If you're a patron, simply link your Patreon account to your Spotify account. Add our new feed titled Bangkok Podcast Badass Patrons only to hear the regular band bonus shows in the same place for sure. Okay, well, on this episode, we are taking a hopeful look at the future of Thailand in terms of what it means to be a family.

Greg 00:03:22 Now on the show, we sometimes talk about some of the surprisingly progressive moves being made in, quote unquote, conservative Thailand. The most recent example of this trend, though, is that as of this past week, Thailand became only the third Asian country after Taiwan and Nepal, to recognize same sex marriage. Yay, Thailand! But this doesn't mean the fight for true equality is over. So this week, we sit down with my good friend Jacob, who is American, and his husband Guang, who is Thai, to not only talk about their now legal marriage, but also their son who was carried by a surrogate who lives in South America. And if you thought the paperwork for your marriage was hard, just imagine what these guys had to go through. So to talk about this and all the ways in which these paradigms are changing and evolving. Here is my wonderful interview with our good friends Jacob and King. All right. Well, I am sitting down here with someone who I do not see enough.

Greg 00:04:19 I've known for a long time, but I do not see enough. My buddy Jacob, and also just today for the first time met his husband, King Guang. Sorry. Not Kang, Guang, Jacob and Guang. Welcome to the Bangkok Podcast. Great to see you.

Jacob 00:04:31 Thank you. Same here. Yeah. Thank you. Great to see you here.

Greg 00:04:34 Jacob has a.

Jacob 00:04:35 Cold. Not enough.

Greg 00:04:36 Really? I'm really looking forward to listening to your Barry White like voice.

Jacob 00:04:39 That's right. That's right.

Greg 00:04:41 Well, great to meet you guys. And again, it's we were talking earlier about how, you know, something about this city where you can be very close to someone or live across the street from someone, and you never see them. It's been years since I've seen friends who are in the same neighborhood as me.

Jacob 00:04:54 It's crazy. It's so true. So true. Yeah. I live in, like a 200 meter radius. And when people ask me to go to two stops down, I feel like I have to get a visa to go that far.

Greg 00:05:06 This is why I say what people always say. Oh, I don't know if I could get removed in Bangkok or live in live in Singapore. It'd be two. But I'm like, you know, you don't go more than a kilometer away from the Skytrain. You could live in Singapore.

Jacob 00:05:15 Sponsoring.

Geng 00:05:16 The size of the city. It's like big make a city, but then you just kind of live in that bubble.

Greg 00:05:22 Yeah, you live in. You're a town in. Within the city. A town in town? Oh, yeah. anyway, you guys are on the show to talk about something that is is really, really interesting to me. And I think you guys are sort of, on the cutting edge of progressiveness in Thailand. And on the bonus episode that we do, we have a, we have a bit called weed Watch where Ed and I discuss any updates or changes to the marijuana legalization laws. And Singing Sweet Mary Jane. Because a lot of people, I think, see Thailand as the quote unquote conservative Buddhist culture.

Greg 00:06:01 And to see a country like that making these bizarrely progressive, modern moves is a little bit disorienting. So we always say the the weed watch is a barometer for Thailand's, you know, steadily progressive. Yeah, yeah. But they've also made some, some very welcome and uncharacteristically, surprisingly progressive moves in other areas, too. And we're recording this just recently after the marriage equality law came into effect. And, you guys are are married. Yes. But you also have adopted a child. So that's why I think this is a really interesting look into, into what Thailand is moving towards. Hopefully moving towards is these equal opportunities for everyone, no matter who, what or where. Yeah. So can can. Can we just get into that a little bit like tell us a little bit about about yourselves. You guys have been married. How long have you been married and where you got married and how that worked out?

Jacob 00:07:03 Sure, sure. Just to just to clarify. actually, our son, we didn't adopt.

Jacob 00:07:10 we'll talk about that when we, I think, talk about our journey. But actually, he was born via surrogacy. But, do you want to do you want to share or you want me to share this story? Yeah. Okay. This can all be post edited.

Greg 00:07:26 So which one of you is the strong, silent type and which one to use? The gab master.

Jacob 00:07:31 I can talk to a door. So, Okay, maybe I'll just give a little bit of my story, who I am and how I came to be in Thailand. And then maybe gang, you want to share yours, and then we can. so. American. been in Thailand now for 14 years. Thailand is country number seven. Wow. For me, it is the only country that I arrived to that I was like, no, no, I don't, I don't know when, but this is not for me. This has an expiration date and now it's the place that I've been the longest. And I am now married to a Thai and we have a family here.

Jacob 00:08:11 So I've just learned to shut up, enjoy the ride. And, and it's and it's really an amazing. Right. and how I've come to love this country. I think it's afforded a lot of opportunities. Been able to really build a career here, build a company. And I think, most importantly, build a family. so that's that's me in a nutshell. And then gang and I met, New Year's Eve 2021. Yes. Okay. but maybe do you want to share a little your story?

Greg 00:08:46 I'll start with that story. I want to hear that.

Geng 00:08:48 Okay. Yes. Well, before that. Maybe like to introduce myself a little bit. I am Thai, I was born and was raised here. I spent, maybe part of my life overseas in the States and in Canada during my education. Then I came back to Thailand, working for the government until, our paths crossed about, what, a couple of years ago in 2021. Yeah. At the New Year's party. So we met in 2021.

Geng 00:09:23 And you know like the first, the first one of the very first conversations that we had like right after we started dating is having a family. Oh yeah. You know he Jacob sat me down at the table and he was like okay, let's just, you know, have a serious conversation about having a family. I was like, Okay. Wow. Here it comes. And, you know, we we discussed and then, finally we decided to, I decided to to to go ahead and have a family with him. Yeah. Okay.

Greg 00:10:07 No, I totally understand, because I was the exact same way I grew up. I almost got a vasectomy when I was, like 22. I was like, absolutely sure I was never going to have a family. And when I met my wife, after several years, I was like, well, if I want this to continue, we're probably going to have to have the same talk that you had.

Jacob 00:10:23 Yeah. Yeah. And for me, it was a, accelerated conversation.

Jacob 00:10:29 Right? maybe it was like on dates 2 or 3, and I thought, okay, I feel like this could have legs and could be serious. And I like this guy, and, and I was already in a process to be a single father at the time, so it was I needed to make that clarification because, hey, I don't want you to I don't want this to go somewhere. And then all of a sudden you're going to have a surprise like, oh, wait, you've been trying to have a child in parallel this whole time. So I started the process, in a yeah, in a kind of a international fashion. Had consulted a lot with, friends about surrogacy, in fact, in fact, a close friend of mine from 20 years ago, because, again, Thailand's country number seven. So at one point I lived in Spain. A friend who I knew from Spain, he and his husband had, a daughter here through surrogacy. And that was baby Carmen. I'm not sure if you're familiar, but that was a case that went up to the Supreme Court in Thailand, and the surrogacy laws changed.

Jacob 00:11:41 And I saw how on pins and needles he and his husband were at that time. And so it just reminds you this is a human process. And and they were very fearful for what it meant for their family. So going into that, I, I did a lot of research and eventually started as a single person. Okay, I won't go into all those details, but just to say Covid happened, okay. And when Covid happened, everything stopped. So I put the dream away and the dream stayed away. And then, as mentioned, New Year's Eve 2021, not looking for love, that's for sure.

Greg 00:12:24 never strikes when you wanted to.

Jacob 00:12:26 I ran into this guy, and yeah, we we eventually dated, and I did just let him know. Hey, when Covid, you know, does come up and and this is all said and done, I want you to know there's a process that's in play, and.

Geng 00:12:47 The idea of having a family to me. To me, it is not new.

Geng 00:12:51 You know, I back in my 20s or 30s, I have the idea of wanting to have my own family like kids, you know? But realizing I am a gay man and it's. I live in a country where gay marriage at that time is not legal. And, you know, we're going to have to go through hoops and, like, hurdles to get to having a family, raising a kid. So that dream kind of like just dash away. Right.

Jacob 00:13:25 So then he met me. And I love hoops and hurdles. So I was like.

Greg 00:13:29 You're nothing if not a breaker of barriers.

Jacob 00:13:31 That's right.

Geng 00:13:32 And adding to that, you know, like this decision and this discussion happened before, the knowledge of the the Equal Marriage bill. It wasn't even being in the parliament, so we didn't know about that. We had no idea that that in the parliament there they're working on passing the bill.

Jacob 00:13:53 So and so for us it was regardless of all things, let's, you know, let's create a family or are you on board? Are you do you support this? Yes, I support 100%.

Jacob 00:14:06 And eventually we got to the point. Well, listen, if you support this 100%, we don't know what's going to happen with Covid. I don't know what's going to happen with that process that I started. Do you want to start again? And let's do this as a couple from from square one.

Greg 00:14:22 So gang, you knew that that this was going to happen and then you decided to get married and you were okay. You were you were on board.

Geng 00:14:29 Yes. Yes, I I'm totally on board.

Jacob 00:14:32 So we started again and went from square one and decided to ultimately, go through a program in Colombia, Bogota was where her son was born.

Geng 00:14:47 Yeah. We did we did a lot of research on on other, surrogacy, services, like in couple different countries, like in the states, in Canada, like some other places. But finally we we looked at the at Colombia surrogacy program at this clinic and, and, you know, from the track record from there, everything was legality.

Jacob 00:15:14 And, it was it felt like, you know, we interviewed surrogates and the surrogates also interview us.

Jacob 00:15:23 They get the right to choose who they want to carry for. And, it was a it just felt like a much more. Yeah, we felt comfortable and we knew, families who had gone through that process. So.

Greg 00:15:37 So let's focus first on the, on the, on the getting married part. So you guys had decided the family first.

Jacob 00:15:44 So we knew that we wanted to build a family. And then, we had started our part of the process, which is to, you know, do our, our DNA samples, make sure we're all healthy. We did that part.

Greg 00:15:58 5% of work that men do.

Jacob 00:15:59 Exactly. Yeah. And it probably was also about five minutes. and, and then we, we were just living life and I think it felt like, okay, things could start to happen. I mean, it's a long process, right? This is a very intentional. Two men bringing a child into the world doesn't happen by accident or a one night stand. This is a very intentional process that requires a lot of people involved.

Jacob 00:16:27 So when it felt like, okay, the train is really starting to move. I, I knew that I wanted to marry him. I proposed, I proposed, and that was November 2022 Two that I proposed or October 2022. And then we learned in December or January that we were actually pregnant with one of the surrogates. Oh, wow. And so then it was like we knew we were engaged, but we didn't know when we would get married. And then we knew that we were pregnant by December, January, and we were passing the first trimester. And then it did put things in a little bit more of an accelerated gear that we must be married before the. At that time we were trying for two children at one time because we are, I won't say the word effing crazy. Anything crazy. and we needed to legally be married for before both children were born. Because specifically for the child that would be born to gangs DNA. being married would afford that child US Citizenship even though the child is born on Colombian soil, even though the DNA is the tie.

Jacob 00:17:47 Father. The child is American by proxy because we are the intended parents. Surrogacy is legal in the United States. We are the intended parents on the US. The US form of a birth certificate for a US citizen born abroad. So we would need to be married.

Geng 00:18:03 So yeah, that was the plan for.

Jacob 00:18:05 Yeah. So we put that in high gear.

Greg 00:18:07 Let me just say so. So then when you decided that you needed to get married first, how did that work and where was it done?

Geng 00:18:13 Oh so yes. So we that back then during Covid, we were kind of still in the middle of Covid. So the first and I think foremost the the biggest problem is logistics and trying to get to the US right before we go to Colombia to pick up our baby is kind of problematic. So the timeline is kind of like, oh, it doesn't give us a lot of room. So we did a research, did a little research on like getting married.

Jacob 00:18:48 Research is talking to my mom, by the way.

Geng 00:18:51 Little research online also talking to Jacob's mom. And we found out from from Jacob's mom that you can actually get married online, you know, just.

Greg 00:19:03 In America, like, quote unquote.

Geng 00:19:04 Yeah, yeah. With, American.

Greg 00:19:09 registration, actually.

Jacob 00:19:11 Yeah, yeah, with the US government, I mean, so she asks, well, can't you get married online or I guess maybe that had become a trending topic during Covid because people were wanting to get married. They couldn't get out of their houses. So people were doing it online. And, it just so happens that, yes, you still can do that even now after Covid, it's a state by state offering. just so happens that Utah, a state that I have never been to and don't have real plans to go to, offers marriage online.

Greg 00:19:45 Great. Salt Lake?

Jacob 00:19:46 Yeah, you.

Geng 00:19:47 Can do it via a zoom call. Wow. You could, like, scan a QR code right after the ceremony to get your license. Marriage license? Right away.

Jacob 00:19:57 To. Yeah, yeah. Almost too easy.

Greg 00:20:00 As an aside, I'm also wondering if you can get divorced online.

Jacob 00:20:03 Hey. Well, in fact, it was. This is too easy to get married. What's the divorce? You know, divorce might be a whole nother.

Greg 00:20:11 Scan the wrong QR code. No.

Jacob 00:20:13 Exactly.

Geng 00:20:14 But, like, we we we had, we had a small wedding, you know, ceremony. kind of thing. Just, close friends and families and mostly people sign in from, you know, all over the world. We have friends and families like Jacob's families in the US. And my family is down south in south of Thailand. We have friends here in Bangkok. So people from everywhere.

Jacob 00:20:42 So the baby's on the way. No matter what's happening, the baby's coming. So we need to get married. It was. It just felt very stressful. I was also starting my company at the time, so it's. You're trying to start a company. You need to.

Jacob 00:20:57 We. I had, by the way, I had proposed to him before we even knew we were pregnant. So we knew we were going to get married. But now things are accelerated. We need to be married before the baby comes. Legally. The baby's coming in August across the world. We're going to have to fly to, you know, 12 time zones away. So my, my anxiety was not at its lowest at that time. So the ability for us to overcome the legal part of getting married in a quick way, was very helpful, just to say we do plan on having a proper wedding. That was. That was our. We need to get married legally. It's the. It's the registration. You do the civil, you know, registration. We did a nice little ceremony, but we would like to have the proper Thailand beach wedding.

Greg 00:21:50 That's actually quite common for for a lot of my friends in Thailand where they've done it. I think Ed did it too. He did it like a the paperwork waiting and then the.

Greg 00:21:58 Yeah, the show off wedding. Right.

Jacob 00:21:59 Yeah, yeah. And now that it and it's just so serendipitous that now the law has changed. It's even more of a reason than. Sure. Hey, now let's get married under Tyler.

Greg 00:22:11 So. So all of this happened before this marriage equality Act had passed in time? Yes. If that law had existed, would you have gotten properly married? Like, legally married in Thailand? I assume that.

Jacob 00:22:21 I think so.

Greg 00:22:22 Yeah.

Geng 00:22:22 Yeah.

Jacob 00:22:23 I think it would have made sense. I, you know, here here's the if marriage equality had existed in Thailand, if the means to have a child for two people of the same sex through medical technology existed in Thailand. We would have never left Thailand, right? We would have done everything here. And having a child, as you know, is not one is a bit of a stressful thing in life. It's a lovely, amazing thing, but it's stressful as is.

Greg 00:22:54 Before my kid, I was skinny and had a full head of hair.

Greg 00:22:56 Yeah.

Jacob 00:23:00 You and me both. So to add on top of that, the added layer of we have to fly trans Atlantic, Pacific every, you know, across the world we have to deal with immigration in Colombia, immigration at the it's just an in a very closed time frame. You know we're two working adults. We don't have the luxury to go and spend six months and do admin when we feel like it. We got to get this done within one month's timeframe because we have to come back At that time, there was no we weren't legally married. So he has no paternity leave. He's having to take every other kind of leave to be able to make this happen. I mean, it was it just adds on a layer of complexity that was, again, hoops and hurdles.

Greg 00:23:48 So when you got married in Utah, then at that time, Thailand didn't legally recognize your marriage?

Geng 00:23:54 No.

Jacob 00:23:54 Yeah. No. Exactly. We and we physically got married in Thailand. But under the law, the the laws of Utah.

Greg 00:24:01 Okay. So your your son came into Thailand as your son before the Marriage Equality Act went into effect. What challenges did that present you? Because I know nothing about it, but I'm assuming that two fathers bringing in a non Thai son exactly would have just exploded brains. What was that like?

Geng 00:24:22 Oh my God. I think the first thing that comes to my mind is immigration issue. Because here I have a husband who is a foreigner here in Thailand already. That's a problem.

Geng 00:24:36 Not really a problem.

Jacob 00:24:38 Because of Thai law. You don't. At that time, you didn't have a husband.

Geng 00:24:42 True. True. Because I first of all, I. We had a baby through surrogacy in the country. In foreign country. Where here in Thailand, surrogacy is only legal if it's done by a married heterosexual who has proven to be to be unsuccessful, to to give birth. You know, like, naturally you need a doctor's note basically to, to do surrogacy here in Thailand. And also I was married to this guy, a foreigner in a foreign country.

Geng 00:25:23 And in Thailand, the law, it's still illegal. It's not illegal, but it's not recognized as a marriage? Yeah. So bringing in both Jacob and Eli into the equation, it's it's, an immigration nightmare.

Jacob 00:25:41 I think. Yes. In the sense of how we would like things to be recognized in the in the sense of, like, practically coming into Thailand. No issue. Because Eli was born of my DNA. at birth, he is a Colombian citizen because he was born in Colombia and under the laws of Colombia. And then he's American because he's of my DNA. So when we flew with him to Thailand, he enters as a US citizen. And and he with the visa waiver program. Right. So there was no issue bringing him in, but he is only tied to me under the eyes of the law. And in fact, on the the eyes of the law, we have no legal connection, nor do I. Nor do Eli with gang. Things are now changing because of the marriage equality that I will now have a connection to.

Jacob 00:26:39 Gang. But, Eli, there's still a question mark. Will he be able to have a legal connection to gang?

Greg 00:26:46 And that's still unknown.

Geng 00:26:48 Still unknown. Still unknown. I mean, we know we know for sure that that he can have a connection to me through adoption, so that that's for sure. And I think these, marriage equality will give, we'll make this process easier, you know, adoption. Eli, as my adopted son would be easier.

Greg 00:27:13 It's a it's a really weird concept to think about, like, as a father myself, like, thinking that I. I needed to adopt him in order to be recognized as his father is is a strange idea, because my name is just written on the birth certificate. And there you go. Right? Right.

Jacob 00:27:27 But and. Yeah. And so in our case, for example, we are five people coming together to bring two children into the world. We have an egg donor and we have one singular egg donor that's between both of us.

Jacob 00:27:44 We have two sperm donors, myself and Kang. We are the sperm equations. And then we had two separate surrogates. We had a surrogate that carried for carried our son Eli. And we will have a surrogate that will carry our future child. For Guang.

Greg 00:28:02 That's already in process.

Jacob 00:28:05 we're matching right now with the second surrogate. Okay, cool. Now that Eli is a year and a half, we are looking. We want him to have a sibling. And so we're now being matched with the second surrogate, the child that was born currently of my DNA when they were when Eli was born. he has a Colombian birth certificate. And then he has what? The US has something called the certificate of a report of a birth abroad for a US citizen on that. It's basically the US birth certificate for somebody born outside the States. Okay. On that certificate, the two parents are myself and parent one and parent number two. Interesting. And Eli has both of our last names. Holder Kung Pao.

Jacob 00:28:52 That is his last name on his passport. Under the US law, gang has the same rights and the same responsibilities as I do as a parent. Okay, child number two, that will be of gang's DNA at birth will be Colombian unborn under the law of Colombia. Will be tie because his father. The DNA is Thai right and will be American because we are married by proxy. So the difference is that the US Says two intended parents, regardless of the DNA, but two intended parents. They will. The the American nationality will be given by proxy to the child, even if it's not through the DNA. That's what we don't have with Thailand right now. Right, right. It's only.

Geng 00:29:44 Through blood, and it cannot be granted automatically.

Jacob 00:29:49 And and it's interesting. I don't know what what this means, but, you know, we we checked like, what do you need to register a Thai birth abroad. Right. So for example, when the second child is born and of all the requirements, you need the original birth certificate that shows the Thai parent's name on it, it says nowhere in there that you need to do a DNA DNA test.

Jacob 00:30:15 So there are countries where you do surrogacy where on the original birth certificate, like for example, what we understand In Argentina or the US. They will. I don't know about the US, but they put the intended parents names on the original birth certificate. So a tie in that case, a tie person like gang's name could be on the original birth certificate. He's not the DNA parent. You submit that to tie the tie government according to the what's written on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or Ministry of Exterior that would then allow them to get tie nationality. So the DNA thing is, yes, I think in practicality, but it's not by the regulation.

Greg 00:31:04 I like the phrase you're the intended parent.

Jacob 00:31:06 Like the intended parent.

Greg 00:31:07 Yeah, yeah. You know, we did a show a few, a few months back with our senior legal correspondent, Dave, to talk because he sort of broke down the legal ramifications of the marriage equality law and how it's got all these knock on effects and stuff. So it's easy to think of it as like, great, two, two people can get married to the same sex and that's all there is to it.

Greg 00:31:23 But there's so many knock on effects. What I'm really interested in is like. So now, speaking from the perspective of DNA, Eli is yours. Jacob. And future child will be yours. Gang. Yes. And you guys are married. So does that concern or will that this is rhetorical? Will that constitute a quote unquote family under Ty law? Or will it just be like you and your son, you and your son? And we live in the same apartment?

Jacob 00:31:52 You know, these are the this is the big question. I think this is where. Yeah. Go ahead.

Geng 00:31:57 Yeah. I think this is, I mean, yes, yes, we that's that's the family to the definition of family to us. That's that's clearly the family, right? yeah. The two siblings. Eli and our future child will be, will have, different. Right. I would say will have different rights. Because Eli, our son. the first son, he is, American. But, currently, he doesn't have any Thai citizenship.

Geng 00:32:35 He doesn't have Thai citizenship. He doesn't have any right granted to any, Thai citizens. And our second one from from my DNA, he will have the full rights as a Thai citizen or. Yes, as a Thai citizen would be, eligible for any, you know, government benefits. could be anything.

Jacob 00:33:00 Yeah, but I think your your question is right. Like, will Thai law recognize this as a family unit? And, you know, for me, for example. Okay. You're absolutely right. Like marriage equality. It's fantastic. Right. Like it allows people who, you know, never dreamed that they would be able to protect just the the love between themselves and another person. They can do that now. Now what that then offers on the other side of that is people continue to dream, and some may dream of having family and they will, they'll go after that by traditional means medical technology, adoption, whatever. And so I think the laws have to recognize that there's a new modern family.

Jacob 00:33:51 Yes, that is going to be constituted in many different ways. And then how do you I think the most, most important thing that policymakers and that we all need to consider is how do we protect the the children, the as it stands today, if something happened to me and I think about this every time I get on a motor bike and and yes, I should be wearing a helmet every time. I always say my sha sha sha sha. Yeah, exactly. But if something happened, then what? What could you know? What are the responsibilities and rights that Guang is afforded under Thai law? For our son, right now, that doesn't exist.

Geng 00:34:33 Yeah. I think I want to also add to that point now that the marriage equality becomes the law and and that grant me the right to make a, you know, difficult decision like medical decision. And in case that something happened to Jacob and he needs a like big surgery or something, and also that at least that part of the, you know, the family aspect that is recognized by Tyler.

Geng 00:35:04 but something else, like if we want to travel as a family, if you're not here in the picture anymore right now, I can take Eli out of the country. Yeah, like go outside. Just me and him and me. Be like with other child. Yeah. We can't go without you.

Greg 00:35:21 It's already difficult for for heterosexual couples, too. And I've mentioned this on the show previously, but I flew to Canada a few years ago with my son, just me and him, and we got to immigration as we were checking out of Thailand and the guy said, where's mommy and I? And and I said, oh, she's not here. And I and you could almost see him go like, oh, for fuck's sake. You know, like, oh, now I got to deal with this. But I was ready because I read about it. So I brought the birth certificate. I had to sign things, and one of my friends even had to. The guy called his wife and asked to talk a FaceTime call with his daughter and the wife.

Greg 00:35:53 So? So. But but that's a good thing. That's a good problem.

Jacob 00:35:57 Yeah. No, no. Of course. And and again protecting the children. But we we've heard actually, another gay couple, an American and a Thai, they have a daughter, blonde, blue eyed daughter. she, she was adopted, actually, in the United States, by both of them. And then they moved back to Thailand, And so again afforded all the same legal rights and responsibilities under US law. And when they came here. She grew up in Thai school. She speaks Thai perfectly. And so when they went to the airport, the Thai father was taking her to the airport to go to maybe Lao or a neighboring country. And so, you know, yes, they look quite different. And then it's like, you know, where is, where's, you know, your daddy and then, you know, imperfect Thai this little blond, blue eyed girl goes, oh, well, this is my poor, you know, so-and-so.

Jacob 00:36:52 And yeah, Paul and.

Geng 00:36:54 Thai.

Jacob 00:36:55 Explained the entire thing. And I think for the officials, it's new. I can't I don't think we can wrong anybody because this is new there and people are learning. So it's just being able to I think the more that we share our story and others are willing to share their story, it, It's, you know, we're still going to be a minority and that's okay. But then we at least let people know, hey, this this happens. And so let let a Paul travel with his daughter to, you know, to the neighboring country and.

Geng 00:37:30 Yeah, and not just just the government. I think what you just ask is also, the social acceptance or or social at large. See this, see us as the family, I think, I think I, I, I think that in the future we Thai, Thai citizens, Thai people in general, or Thai society in general, I think they're very accepting the very like open minded.

Jacob 00:37:58 I think they currently see us.

Geng 00:38:00 Yeah, yeah, I think so. Like, our friends or people that we know, we, we, they're very supportive of, of what we're doing right now or, you know, we're bringing in the like, you know, members of the family.

Greg 00:38:16 Right?

Geng 00:38:16 Right. Everyone we talked to, they're very supportive of us.

Greg 00:38:20 So that's interesting because, you know, a show a couple of years ago, we had my friend Ben Benjamin on who talked. He's got a tight partner, and he was talking about the reality of of being in a same sex relationship in Thailand. And we we talked about the topic of, you know, Thailand is often seen as a Paradise for LGBTQ people, and it might not be so cut and dry. You know, now, this new law is obviously evidence that we're making progress in that regard. But so do you think it will be? easy, easy, easy might not be the right word, but will that be more easily accepted here as quote unquote normal in Thailand? Like, you know, like, being gay, gay couple, gay marriage, those are sort of increasingly more common and more accepted and not a big deal at all.

Greg 00:39:08 Now the next frontier is this new family unit. Will that be easily accepted here, do you think?

Geng 00:39:14 I think Eventually, yes. Eventually this will be normalized.

Greg 00:39:19 Yeah, that's the word I'm thinking of. Yeah.

Geng 00:39:21 This would be, like, seen as as norm. not a norm, but maybe something normal, you see.

Greg 00:39:27 Not a.

Geng 00:39:28 Big deal. Not a big deal. Exactly. And I think that also very, obvious in, in especially young generation, you know, like Gen Z, Gen Alpha. And they did a lot of research on the, their, whether they accept the, the concept of like LGBTQ or like Modern Family and they saw these like, you know, good statistics among these generations. so they're very accepting, accepting of this new concept, new idea, as of the older generation. they, they may be looking or like just, you know, quietly curiosity. Curiosity. And they also. And society in general, not a violent, you know, society.

Geng 00:40:18 And and sometimes if they don't agree with something, they're not going to come out and like, protest or say something non-confrontational. So, so I think it's, it's and they're learning, you know, giving them time, enough time and, and show them that, that this could, you know, could be okay with like normal family. They will eventually. I think they will.

Jacob 00:40:45 I, I think that, I think I yes, I think in fact, it's probably again, country number seven, I think is the gayest country I've ever lived in. I mean, it's like it is gay. Sometimes I'm like, whoa, it's a little much for me even at times.

Greg 00:41:02 So it's what I say. I miss Bangkok, everyone's a little.

Jacob 00:41:05 Bit.

Geng 00:41:05 Is this language.

Jacob 00:41:07 So I, I think it is super welcoming. I think now I speak about this from a foreigner perspective and so on surface level, super accepting. I think, gender identity is super accepted here. It's just part of the culture.

Jacob 00:41:25 And I think it's actually one of the beautiful things about Thailand. What now is happening is almost like the law is catching up to where society's already been.

Greg 00:41:37 I think that's what law does. It has to.

Jacob 00:41:40 Yes, at times. But I you know, I come from the United States. We have a very ugly part of our history around slavery in which the country, the you know, thank God there were some you can call them elitist. You can call them whatever. But they were smart enough to say, this law is happening. We don't care if you're on board, but you got to get on board with it. So I think in some cases law sets the tone and then society is going to have to catch up Begrudgingly. And there's still problems in the US. Or in this case, it was here. It was evident. And now we're putting in law to make it, make it a reality. So.

Greg 00:42:23 Okay, so as, as we're wrapping up from, from your perspective as, as people in the LGBTQ community, what is what is what are you hearing on the ground from from your friends and other people in the community? Like, is this is this new law and it's associated extensions like having families? Is this, is this a massive victory? Is it seen as like the next logical step? What's what are people talking about and what's next?

Geng 00:42:50 Well, I, I would like to see this as, as you know, it's, it's a victory for everyone in the society.

Geng 00:42:59 You know, the fact that this law was passed, meaning means that everyone in Thai society already, accepting opening up to this idea of, gender diversity or like, you know, diversity, inclusion. yeah, this idea dei.

Jacob 00:43:24 Which is so crazy that this happened on the same week that in the States that lots going.

Greg 00:43:30 Don't.

Jacob 00:43:31 Even other direction.

Greg 00:43:32 A different podcast.

Geng 00:43:33 So I, I think that this is this is a win win for the society as a whole. I think everybody is happy to see the law was passed. it shows that it's not just just, giving the right to, to LGBTQ, society or community, but it shows that Thailand as a whole is open to a new idea, a new concept, being an open minded and and, you know, we never know what's going to happen in the future. We never know if this law is going to be good for the future. Ten years down the road. But they open to change. New change.

Jacob 00:44:15 Again. You know all of this.

Jacob 00:44:17 These are life choices. Not everybody wants to get married. Not even all heterosexual people. Not everybody wants to have a family. But the fact that people can choose if they want to, and they could do it in the country in which they live or, you know.

Greg 00:44:33 That's.

Jacob 00:44:33 It. That that's the point.

Greg 00:44:35 It's opt in and that's great. And you don't have to do it if you don't.

Jacob 00:44:38 And just because you're granting people the ability to do this takes nothing away from you. It just allows others to participate in the the protection of love.

Greg 00:44:50 Right. Well, what do they say? Like it's not cake. There's not a limited P like you can give. Everyone can have a piece. Just because they have it doesn't mean you get less, you know?

Jacob 00:44:58 Yes. Let them eat cake.

Greg 00:44:59 Exactly. Exactly. And let's finish on something you mentioned earlier. But I think it's it's it's good when all of us realize that it's a learning process and it's we've all got to move forward together, you know? Like you can't see a form that says Mom and dad and lose your shit and be like, outrageous.

Greg 00:45:16 It was dad and dad, you know? So you have to understand that those things need to change, too. And then I have to understand that, of course, there's there's new there's new words, there's new phrases and terms, and things are changing and adapting and evolving. So we all have we're all in this bucket together and we've got to figure it out together.

Jacob 00:45:32 Right. And I and I also I think that's also one of the really great things about you, Greg, is like you're always very transparent. Like, I'm just a, you know, simple straight guy here trying to figure out the.

Greg 00:45:44 World is the slack jawed yokel over here. You want me to call you? They all right? I'm trying. I don't get it. But. All right.

Jacob 00:45:53 So I think we are. I hope, you know, thank you for the opportunity to share our story. I often I'm like, our story is really boring. Like, we don't do anything Nothing special, frankly, but the.

Jacob 00:46:10 The opportunity to share that story and maybe let people in on something that they were afraid to ask or, had curiosity but wouldn't. I won't ask any of my friends about that. Well, we'll share our story. We'll share our story as much as we can to, just let people know that on the other side, there is a family. We are full of love. Chaos, kids, kid. Chaos. Not chaos between us, kid chaos, messy diapers and all crazy.

Greg 00:46:48 Schedules and.

Jacob 00:46:49 Schedules and coordination and logistics and, all of that. So.

Greg 00:46:54 it's a big, wonderful, wild journey. Yes, yes. Well, thank you guys. That was really interesting. And, it's cool to see things changing, and, and evolving and to, to these new realities we all find ourselves in. And it's so cool living in a country that's considered old fashioned, that is making some of these really important progressive moves. And it's so fascinating to see and really, really cool to be a part of.

Greg 00:47:19 So thank you for coming on the show and discussing. And I believe your son is probably hungry upstairs.

Jacob 00:47:25 Yeah.

Greg 00:47:25 Let's, let's go check him out and we'll get him, get him some food and then we'll have some beer. Well.

Jacob 00:47:32 I'll go marry somebody of the same gender and smoke some marijuana, because.

Greg 00:47:37 I have to ask.

Jacob 00:47:37 My wife.

Greg 00:47:38 But but but I'm on board.

Geng 00:47:40 Yeah, well, thank you so much for inviting us.

Greg 00:47:42 Oh, it's a pleasure. Thank you again. And we'll have have you back on when, Eli turns 15 or something, and we'll see how those teenage years are going.

Jacob 00:47:50 Oh my God, dad, you're not cool.

Greg 00:47:52 So lame.

Geng 00:47:53 Something new to learn.

Jacob 00:47:54 Thanks, guys. All right. Cheers. Thanks.

Ed 00:48:04 Dude, their story is fascinating, but I just want to say that just being here this week and seeing stories, online about, these couples finally being able to totally legally get married. I mean, it was heart wrenching, really.

Ed 00:48:20 I mean, some of these couples. Okay, you you realize there's going to be a lot of couples who are who are going to legalize it, but a lot of them are couples that have been together for 20 or 30 years.

Greg 00:48:31 Yeah. Yeah. Way longer than most. The average heterosexual marriage is last, right?

Ed 00:48:36 Yeah. Before we get to Jacob again, their story is amazing. But I just want to say I'm. Hats off to Thailand. Like you said, give credit where credit is due. Thailand. Thailand is frustratingly conservative in some ways. But, you know, when it comes to just sexuality in general, we've said many times Thai people are just pretty chill and pretty reasonable. and.

Greg 00:48:59 Do your thing. I'll do my thing.

Ed 00:49:01 That's right. and which, works well if you're a minority, someone who is attracted to the same sex. So, yeah, I mean, I just think this has been been one of the best weeks I've had in Thailand just watching these stories.

Greg 00:49:17 And you're not even gay.

Ed 00:49:18 That's right. It's just, It's just. It's just heartwarming. I don't know, I don't want to call it.

Greg 00:49:23 Everyone likes to see happy people. And now there's more happy people. So how can that not make you happy?

Ed 00:49:29 Correct?

Greg 00:49:29 Correct. Yeah. Yeah. It was a really interesting story. And I had the thought now that I know this is, you know, apples to oranges in an extreme way, but, you know, being in a long term relationship with the same sex partner in, in Thailand or in most countries where, where same sex marriage is illegal, it kind of must be like what it is working in Thailand illegally. I remember back in my day, or you never feel like you're home. You never feel like what you're doing is really allowed. You're feeling that at any time someone could come by and and bust you or, you know, make life hard for you. And it's it's it's maybe sort of Damocles is the wrong phrase to use, but it's shitty to have something like that hanging over your head all the time.

Greg 00:50:12 So this is a it's a great step forward.

Ed 00:50:14 Yeah. I just know from teaching about the, fight for marriage equality in the state. So just from educating myself about that, I, I learned that, you know, just official legal recognition. It's worth more than you would think. you might you might think that. Hey, I just want to be left alone. If you just leave me alone, I'll be fine. And that is an important step just to be left alone. But, the official recognition, it matters a lot, especially over the long term.

Greg 00:50:45 Right? And, I, like I said in the interview, I mean, these guys are I said they're on the cutting edge of, of of the modern, modern, modern family because now they have a son who was surrogate. Is that a word surrogate? Surrogate?

Ed 00:51:00 You can say conceived.

Greg 00:51:02 Conceived, so conceived and carried by. By another woman. By a woman. Anyway, you hear the story. You heard the interview.

Greg 00:51:08 but this is funny. This is what this is, is, is happening now. All of these new words and relationships. That's right, that's right. And the status quo is changing, which is great. But, yeah, it's just great. And, you know, hanging out with them. I was over at their place doing an interview, and we had coffee and playing around with their son, and he's a lovely little kid, and these guys are just a great family. They clearly love each other. They clearly love their son. And, like I said, more happy people is is a net positive for everyone. So congratulations to both of them. And thanks guys for coming on the show for sure.

Ed 00:51:40 Thank you guys.

Greg 00:51:41 All right. Well, we ask our listeners to send in a voicemail using the little microphone button on our website if they have something to say. And this week we heard from our pal Kevin. Take it away, Kevin.

Kevin 00:51:50 Hi, guys. This is, Kevin from Seattle, and I had a question for you, about your thoughts as to, If you did a I guess if you did a poll of a thousand ties, you know, a variety of, you know, gender, demographic, you know, age, occupation, you just took a thousand ties and asked them whether they love, loathe or live with expats and whether they love, loathe or live with tourists. I'm curious what you think the consensus, if there is one, what that consensus might be. All right. Great show, guys. Thanks. Bye bye.

Ed 00:52:33 Hey, that's a really interesting question. I mean, we've touched upon some of these issues before. I mean, I I've talked about how, Thailand is more tourist friendly than expat friendly. And I've also talked about the fact that, sometimes as foreigners, because of the circles we hang out with, we might forget that there's a lot of Thai people who might not be that happy having foreigners in Thailand, because we're hanging out in international circles, the type people we know are might not be the average Thai person, right?

Greg 00:53:05 Yeah, and I've never experienced any overt racism or like, get out, go home. Unless you say something like, you know, why don't you improve this? And then it's just, well, if you don't like it, go home. Which is, you know, that's not directly related to not liking foreigners.

Greg 00:53:17 It's just not liking people complaining about stuff they can't change. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's all hard to answer because obviously we're not Thai, but it reminds me of that old phrase that people say sometimes is that for the most part, foreigners in Thailand are tolerated, if not loved.

Ed 00:53:34 Yeah. That's right, that's right. But but it's a good question, though. Maybe. Maybe we'll try it. I don't know if we can. I don't know if we can, survey a thousand Thai people. Maybe. Maybe we'll get a few, a few comments, a few choice comments.

Greg 00:53:45 We could we could ask around what? What our Thai friends. Thai friends think. I don't think we have that that many Thai listeners to the show, but it's a it's an interesting thought experiment. It would be interesting to hear the results on that for sure.

Ed 00:53:57 Thanks, Kevin. Thanks, Kevin. A final thanks to our patrons who support the show. Patrons get a ton of cool perks and the warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that they're helping and are never ending.

Ed 00:54:05 Quest for cool content. Find out more by clicking support on our website and connect with us online. Where Bangkok podcasts on social media. Bangkok podcast on the web or simply Bangkok Podcast at gmail.com. We love hearing from our listeners and always reply to our messages.

Greg 00:54:25 Yeah baby! You can also listen to each episode on YouTube. Send us a voicemail through our website that will feature on the show. Hit me up on blue Sky VK Greg. Thanks for listening, everyone. Take it easy. I'll see you back here next week for sure.