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June 11, 2024
Regional Podcast Pals: Joah McGee on Covering Tragedy & Hope on Insight Myanmar [S7.E23]
![Regional Podcast Pals: Joah McGee on Covering Tragedy & Hope on Insight Myanmar [S7.E23]](https://getpodpage.com/image_transform_gate_v3/QpPfLOA_H_Q2z45T5jZtwvFci4hmxsBlB47e9j12jNE=/?image_url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.libsyn.com%2Fp%2Fassets%2F9%2Fe%2F2%2F2%2F9e22f8cd504759fde55e3c100dce7605%2FBKP7_EP_LOGO_23_big.jpg&w=1200&h=630&fill=blur "Regional Podcast Pals: Joah McGee on Covering Tragedy & Hope on Insight Myanmar [S7.E23]"){kind=logo}
Wrapping up our short series on our regional podcast peers, Greg interviews Joah McGee from the . Joah begins by explaining his early life in Myanmar and how he initially went to the country to study meditation and later secured a proper job doing...
Wrapping up our short series on our regional podcast peers, Greg interviews Joah McGee from the Insight Myanmar Podcast. Joah begins by explaining his early life in Myanmar and how he initially went to the country to study meditation and later secured a proper job doing training for an American Embassy-related organization. He managed to juggle professional life dealing with politics, with a personal life in monasteries practicing meditation. This eventually led Joah to making a documentary about a famous monk and writing a guidebook for foreigners wishing to study meditation in the country. As his expertise increased, a podcast focused on spiritual aspirants was the logical next step.
All was not to stay rosy, however, as the country suffered a military coup in 2021. At that point, Joah and his partners made the decision to transition the podcast to more general stories about on-the-ground realities in the country, which of course necessitated dealing with the complex political situation in Myanmar. Greg questions Joah about issues such as self-censorship, guest selection, and the overall tone of the show. Joah explains that the harsh reality of current life in Myanmar requires serious shows, but that he does his best to mix things up and highlight the many special aspects of Burmese culture that people often forget among the grim stories in the news.
For a great change of pace from the Bangkok Podcast, check out Insight Myanmar.
Don’t forget that Patrons get the ad-free version of the show as well as swag and other perks. And we’ll keep our Facebook, Twitter, and LINE accounts active so you can send us comments, questions, or whatever you want to share.
Transcript
Greg (00:00:00) - Hey guys, just a quick heads up Ed recorded this week from Hong Kong on his mobile recording device. So some of the plosives came through on his track. Those are that pop that we usually don't have on the show. So we just wanted to give you a quick heads up, but no worries. Most of the episode is our conversation with our friend Joey. Anyway, so on with the show. By phone on this episode, we continue our regional podcast series with a conversation with Joey from the Insight Myanmar podcast.
Ed (00:00:28) - So if you're curious to hear what it's like doing a podcast about a place that definitely doesn't appreciate the attention, you'll dig this episode of the Bangkok Podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:00:49) - So I did grow up. And welcome to the Van Gogh podcast.
Greg (00:00:52) - My name is Greg Jorgensen, a Canadian who came to Thailand in 2001 because I had a dream where I ended up like the titular character of my favorite poem, The Cremation of Sam McGee, and there ain't no way I'm going out like a frozen Greg Sichel.
Ed (00:01:07) - I don't even know what that is, but it sounds pretty grim.
Greg (00:01:10) - It's a it's a it's a fantastic poem by Robert Service that you should check out. It's really, really good. It's a bit it's a bit funny. It's a bit dark and it's very Canadian.
Ed (00:01:19) - Okay, I'll check it out. And I'm Ed Knuth, an American who came to Thailand on a one year teaching contract 23 years ago, fell in love with always having the option of at least three different spicy condiments with every meal. So I never left.
Greg (00:01:35) - What's your, This might be better for a love, love or live with, actually. But what's your take of, on vinegar? On noodles?
Ed (00:01:43) - I am in favor of it. In general. I'm pro vinegar on everything.
Greg (00:01:47) - Yeah. Me too. So it's it's a it's a condiment over here. Yeah.
Ed (00:01:51) - True that. Well, it always cracks me up when I look at the condiments on the table. Okay, they're not all spicy, but it's usually, like, hot, hotter and hottest.
Greg (00:02:00) - It's like the temperature in Thailand, right? Like, do you want it hot or do you want to melt your face off? Like.
Ed (00:02:05) - That's right, that's right. We want to say a quick thank you to one of our patrons, Joe, who supports us at the show shout out level. Stick around. After our interview with Joe from the Insight Myanmar podcast. Do you hear why, Joe? Well, nothing really. Our pal Joe wanted to support the show but requested a non shout out which gives us a certain piece bit of an inside joke there. But never mind that our hats are off to Joe.
Greg (00:02:30) - Yeah Joe.
Ed (00:02:32) - We want to give a big thanks to all of our patrons who support the show. Patrons get every episode a day early behind the scenes photos of our interviews, a heads up to send questions to upcoming guests, and access to our discord server to chat with me, Greg, and other listeners around the world. But best of all, patrons like Joe also get an unscripted, uncensored bonus episode every week where we riff on current events and Bangkok topics in a very rare departure.
Ed (00:03:00) - There actually is no bonus show this week due to reasons, but we'll be back next week as usual to learn how to become a patron and get all this good stuff, plus full access to over 700 bonus and regular backup codes. Click this port button at the top of our website.
Greg (00:03:18) - That's right. And as always, if you have a comment or show idea or just want to say hi, head to Bangkok podcast.com and click the little microphone button on the bottom right and leave us a voicemail that will play on the show. And also, I was talking to one of our, a few of our patrons on discord, and it turns out that a few of them also thought that the show shout out level was the show shadow level. So they, they we've got to create like a shadow level of of podcasts of. Oh, that's.
Ed (00:03:45) - Funny, that's funny.
Greg (00:03:47) - Yeah, but it's a shout out. A shout out, shout out, shoot, shoot out as we see in community. All right.
Greg (00:03:56) - Well, in this episode we wrap up our short two part series on our regional podcast, pals with a conversation with our buddy Joe McGee. Now, Joe is one of the names behind the Inside Myanmar podcast, which, as you can imagine, provides insights into Thailand's neighbor to the west. And as you probably know, Myanmar is stuck in a tragic cycle of violence, corruption and war. There's horrible to see. Every time you think the country is going to take a step forward, it somehow manages to take two steps back, but maybe not forever. As recent events have shown, the Inside Myanmar Podcast is a show that takes a look at the awful things that are going on in Myanmar, but also celebrates its rich culture, wonderful people and indomitable spirit something that's sometimes hard to do when everything you say is scrutinized for anything that might offend the powers that be with the possibility of severe repercussions. So to tell us about his journey to Myanmar and the evolution of his fascinating and important podcast, here is my conversation with our buddy Joe McGee.
Greg (00:05:03) - All right. We were sitting here with Joe McGee, my new friend from the Inside Myanmar podcast. Joe, welcome to the Bangkok Podcast.
Joah (00:05:10) - Thank you. It's such a privilege to be here. I've been a listener and fan of yours for years, and it's a thrill to be having this conversation.
Greg (00:05:17) - the privilege is ours. The privilege is ours. So, we we only recently met. We've talked online for a while, but we only recently met in person. It's great to chat here in Bangkok. And, this is part of our series on, I guess we can call. I don't know what we're going to call it when when we actually do the show, but, our regional podcast buddy series or something like that. So, we talked to Mike in Vietnam, and we're talking to you in Myanmar, and, we're sort of just trying to get a temperature and talk to our friends around the region about what they're doing with their shows, because, you know, we're a.
Greg (00:05:48) - And a podcast and stuff like that. So, Inside Myanmar podcast is a really, really interesting show. It's it's much more grown up and serious than our show. I think we're going to rebrand the Bangkok Podcast to like, the most smart ass podcast in Asia, because all the other ones we seem to look at are like, serious.
Joah (00:06:05) - you guys are doing a great job. I love it.
Greg (00:06:07) - We're the only we're the ones that bring a little bit of levity to the situation.
Joah (00:06:10) - Yeah, well, you you bring levity, but you also go into interesting topics. I learned things from your guests, and I enjoy it.
Greg (00:06:15) - Yeah, cool. Well, we're all, like I say, a rising tide lifts all boats. so tell us a little bit about yourself and why. Why Myanmar? How did you end up there?
Joah (00:06:25) - So I ended up in Myanmar because I was I did the passion of meditation and the tradition of Sione Goenka. I, he has, these are the ten day silent retreats you see around the world.
Joah (00:06:36) - And, I had taken several courses, when I was, 23 years old, 22. And I did my first course transformed my life. And I was hearing that the origins of this technique went back to Burma. And so I was intrigued to go there. And this was 2003, when it was, long before any hope of a democratic change it happened. And, and it was very difficult for foreigners to be in the country for longer than a tourist visa. but my one month, stay as a meditator in 2003 was so impactful on my spiritual practice, I wanted to find some way to get back. And that came in 2007. I, I was really fortunate to get a job in my field, which was, training, and I was working for the American Center, which was part of the American Embassy mission, leading training missions. And so for my first several years in Burma, I always tell people my initial Burma experience was, is is, I think, very unique considering the other foreigners I, I meet that are there, that usually come in with one perspective or prism through which they understand the country.
Joah (00:07:40) - But for me, I was spending my work hours doing teaching, training, politics, democracy, human rights, these, these type of, of, of of mindset. And then during my weekends and evenings, I was at monasteries, meditation centers, pagodas, meditating. So it was, so my early Burma experience was trying to understand how to juggle these extraordinarily different worlds that sometimes were separated by a 15 minute walk. Wow.
Greg (00:08:08) - That's man. That's serious. That's heavy stuff, man. How did you get through that, silent meditation? I don't think I can do that.
Joah (00:08:15) - People often say that the silence seems like the hardest thing, but it's, when you actually do it. That's that's the. That's one of the easier ones. That's really the stuff that it pulls up that, it becomes harder, as.
Greg (00:08:24) - I say, about cutting out sugar to like, it's surprisingly easy, although it's always nice to go back and have some sugar.
Joah (00:08:28) - You know, there are monks and nuns in Burma that have not just, done, taken a silent retreat, but have committed to a year or even years of silence, that have taken a vow of silence for years on end.
Greg (00:08:40) - So I saw a picture the other day of some ascetic in Nepal, I think. And he had he had welded a, an iron grate around his neck so he could not lay down.
Joah (00:08:50) - Well, there's a practice in Burma called putting water in your mouth. And what it means is that you, to refrain from speaking foolish or unwise words. You keep water in your mouth at all times so you can't speak.
Greg (00:09:03) - Well, let me know when you get to that stage and we'll we'll have another show on that. Well, that's that's really incredible. And maybe some of our listeners might not know a lot about Burma, but Burma slash Myanmar, it's it's an incredibly complex situation over there. And we're not going to get into the politics of it all. Not directly anyway, on this show. I think we'll leave that up to people like yourself who are, who are or who are more, sort of intelligent and know and well-versed in that area than we are, and, people like, Patrick Winn, who's written some really good books, feature guest on both.
Joah (00:09:35) - Of our podcasts.
Greg (00:09:36) - Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's a great guy. but, let's just say that that it's the situation over there is tragic. Myanmar has so much potential as a culture, as a country, and it's really, really sad to see what's going on. and there are a lot of people in there sort of doing some really good work like yourself and, raising, raising people's interest and, and promoting the issue and trying to, to help the people there. But what I want to focus on now is sort of like making a podcast there. So how did the podcast begin? What's the genesis and what was your mission statement when it began?
Joah (00:10:14) - And sure. So after my job at the embassy ended, American American Center slash embassy, I, I wanted to really delve into the world of monasticism and Buddhism meditation. And in doing so, I, I won't go into the full story now because it's, it's convoluted and, and a lot of surprising twists and turns. But needless to say, I, I ended up, you could say, accidentally creating a kind of amateur documentary about a monk, and which then led to AA4 year project to write a guidebook to Myanmar for meditators and for people coming for spiritual practice and that experience.
Joah (00:10:48) - Put me, and I should mention a very important detail about this, which relates to the podcast, is that this was happening during what's called the transition period, which is when the 20 tens, particularly after 2015, leading before the 2021 coup, where, democratic reforms, to everyone's shock and surprise, started to slowly open the country up.
Greg (00:11:08) - I remember that was mind blowing at the time. Like, what's happening? Yeah.
Joah (00:11:11) - And the reason why that's relevant is that nothing but nothing could happen before the transition of any kind. it was it was under, the freedoms of anyone there were so limited that just in my particular case, a a a white guy wearing a lungi, walking around monasteries, asking a bunch of questions and taking notes would be, a one way ticket out of the country.
Greg (00:11:31) - Yeah. Really interesting. that was a it was a crazy time because it's just it was I mean, it's not even close to a direct comparison, but it's like when they quote unquote legalized weed here, everyone was like, what? Really? No, no, you can't be serious.
Greg (00:11:43) - It was a similar sort of whiplash when that happened in Myanmar. Everyone was like, are you really? And it was too good. It was. People were saying like, is it too good to be true? It turns out maybe it was, but it was a big transition at the time. Was was that a was that a crack in the in the, in the shell, a crack in the door?
Joah (00:12:02) - I think the the if you want to start a hot topic for a, a dinner conversation, just ask Burma people if the transition was a good thing or a sham and see what happens. Yeah, see what food gets against the wall. that's the eternal question. And the coup has changed the dynamics of that question. The short answer I would give is that the transition was authentic and good for some part of the population. that could have extended further. And there were other members of the the ethnic communities, particularly the Rohingya, but also other ethnic minorities, that the benefits of the transition did not extend to.
Greg (00:12:37) - Right. So you're a white guy in a long guy walking around asking questions, making documentaries on monks. How did that end up as a podcast?
Joah (00:12:45) - Yeah. So, well, the documentary went to the guidebook and the guidebook was, was trying to research different spiritual traditions to bring to help meditators who now, because of the transition, because there was more access that, that that you were able to have pilgrimages and more meditators coming in because everything was opening up and not, well, not everything, as we say, but in some select places you did have some opening that was was really wonderful. And as I was working on this guidebook project, I was being asked more and more to give presentations to Buddhist and meditator groups and to, to to write, to, to write things up. And I was getting increasingly uncomfortable as my role as a kind of authority or even gatekeeper. And I started to become aware increasingly how much I didn't know and how many questions I had and how much I was relying on the, just these incredible people that my life journey had taken me to.
Joah (00:13:37) - And I just and being a podcast listener myself, I just felt that what can I do to to to bring the stories in the life of these extraordinarily people that at that time was more focused on Buddhism, meditation, these spiritual journeys, Burmese as well as foreign. how can I bring their their stories and their journey, which I've been so fortunate to, which has shaped my life and understanding and bring that unadulterated voice to the ears of practitioners and yogis and spiritual aspirants everywhere. So that was, the, the initial, formation of the podcast in 2019.
Greg (00:14:11) - but now, now the tone of the podcast, it seems to me, is more is more, taking a close, hard look at the politics and the culture and the conflict that's on the ground. So was that like a transition?
Joah (00:14:23) - And after the. Yeah. So up to the 2021 coup, we were focused more on telling Buddhist and meditator stories. And after the 2021 coup, we we could not in good conscience start sharing stories about the spiritual journey when the monasteries were on fire.
Joah (00:14:37) - They're being bombed by airstrikes, taken over by used as, bases by military. And so we decided to make an emergency transition to a temporary transition at the time to telling wider stories to reach as many people as possible about what was happening in Myanmar and not lose that focus. And in short, that temporary transition became permanent. And that's who we are now. And it's a change I, I love. I would have done that from the start if I thought I could, but but that's that's where we are now.
Greg (00:15:07) - So the obvious question is and, you know, we, we, we grapple with this on our show a lot and we talk about it a lot too, is the issue of self-censorship. There's just certain things that we love to talk about, but we just can't. And that's a reality of living in Thailand and in other countries too. But how do you deal with that? I mean, we we both know people in Thailand who have been critical of things in Burma and who have gotten in trouble in Thailand.
Greg (00:15:30) - So, It's it's fraught with peril. With with with potential. Upset. And, you know, you might get a knock on your door one night. and that's scary. It's it's real scary. So how do you deal with that? I mean, they don't mess around in Burma. Yeah. and if you run afoul of someone important or powerful that can have real life scary consequences. So what what is your take on that? And how do you look at that and deal with it?
Joah (00:15:58) - The way to answer this question is before and after 2021, because everything changed, at that point and before 2021, I would say that, well, rule of law has always been a questionable topic in Burma, and we've done several podcasts with scholars of, of rule of law and how it how to understand it there, but basically there there could be rules in the books that aren't enforced, and there could be, rules that aren't in the books that are enforced. You basically never know.
Joah (00:16:25) - And that makes many things in life in Burma, challenging and confusing and sometimes trying hard to do the right thing can actually get you in more trouble than just kind of trying to have a low profile. So that's kind of some background context. But before 2021, as I say, we were more focused on meditation and Buddhism. So there were a few stories we did that I can say were, if the right or you could say the wrong people had been listening, might have, might have raised some eyebrows, but it would, for an English long form audio medium of a country that few people even understood what a podcast was based on the, where they were with the transition at that time. It was honestly not something that ever occurred to me and maybe ways it should have. after 2021, of course, is a different story because, now you have a fight for legitimacy. And, you know, what we are doing is in full support of and we have the support of the democratic movement of all parts of the Democratic leaders in giving air to their voice.
Joah (00:17:24) - Military. Not so much. We're we're, you know, our page is banned there, and I'm sure they, they don't like very much what we're doing.
Greg (00:17:31) - Oh, interesting. Interesting. It's it's funny you mentioned the, the whole English thing, and, you know, that that's sort of acts as sometimes somewhat of a of a shield, a barrier, you know.
Greg (00:17:41) - If I, if this podcast was in Thai and if we had a million listeners would probably get a lot more scrutiny than, than just two idiots with some microphones in English ranting about, you know, coffee shops or something like that. But you never know. You never know who's listening. But it's, you know, as as you get closer to these controversial topics or talking about issues that the people in charge are tied into, then the interest, I think, goes up. So you just never know who's listening.
Greg (00:18:06) - Get asked a lot how we come up with ideas and and usually it's a shrug of the shoulders going, oh, just stumble into them.
Greg (00:18:13) - I imagine there's no shortage of ideas in, in in Myanmar. Yeah. But I've looked when you look at your, your, your show, a lot of the topics are pretty heavy and pretty sad. And there's no sort of like, happy ending or laughs and jokes. How do you are there any of your shows that, that do sort of have a more of a light touch to them or.
Joah (00:18:35) - Absolutely.
Greg (00:18:36) - How how do you find those and how do you interject them? And another question, I'm talking too much here, but another question. How do you. Does that feel proper? Like, sometimes I feel really silly talking about something goofy when there's so much terrible things going on around me, you know?
Joah (00:18:51) - Let me take your last question first. And immediately after the coup, I was like many people. I was so devastated and just emotionally leveled by all, everyone I cared about being in abject danger and nothing I can do to help them that it was so traumatic, that, it did it did not feel right to do anything but focus on the depth of that trauma and devastation and to get the story out and, and want to share that.
Joah (00:19:15) - And then after some time, I realized, you know, these other stories. I'm kind of withholding interviews that had already been done that weren't being released or interviews of people I could do that felt like it was, kind of bypassing the the harsh reality taking place. I began to realize, you know, those are actually needed to balance. And I look at now my, my monthly offerings of what which episodes we decide to release as being like a balanced meal. And you have to have your, your veggies, your appetizer, your dessert, your appetite for your beverage. And and we have I wouldn't say we necessarily have episodes with a happy ending or that are, that have the kind of banter you talk about on your show, where maybe I'm just, I'm not a funny person or I don't know how to bring it or my humor doesn't translate to podcast, but, but we have stories with artists and, and, and we still have the spiritual stories of people coming. we, we have we have a lot of, we have a lot of stories that are quite to balance those stories that are devastating and justifiably need to be told.
Joah (00:20:18) - We have stories of people that have just done incredible things with their lives that are inspiring, that have overcome odds, that have, that, that have, extraordinary visions and, and, and trajectories that, that come out that leave you feeling, you know, motivated and inspired to look at your own life and what you're doing and how to take their what you're hearing from them and think about how this relates to you. So that's that's very important that we, that we have that balance of all the different kind of storytelling that can take place. And if I could just add one thing onto that, there's a friend of mine who said something I've never forgotten. Her name is theory, and she's been a guest on our show for for many times and brilliant interviews and what she has often said that I always take to heart into mind is do not reduce us to a two dimensional suffering people. We still have our humanity. We laugh, we cry, we, we go out, we do things just like all of you.
Joah (00:21:09) - And so it's very important that in those stories of devastation, were also able to give that full range of humanity that is still continuing to take place even in this time of conflict and strife and trauma.
Greg (00:21:21) - Damn, that was a good answer, man. That's incredible. I totally see where you're coming from, because in the past, for us, when there have been the riots and the coups and the protests and parts of the city are on fire, and there's dead people in the street, the city doesn't stop. people still have to eat. They still have families to raise. They still have responsibilities. And a lot of most people have to work to the best of their ability. so life doesn't stop. And there are still laugh, laughter and, and and and fun and families and friends and social activities and stuff like that, but that I think that just shows the strength of the culture, whether it's Burmese or Thai or wherever. And it shows that the multi-dimensional aspects of it, it has color, it has texture, it has depth.
Greg (00:22:05) - And to ignore those things, your friend is very right. To ignore those things would just be doing it a disservice, because life goes on as shitty as that is sometimes. And despite all the crappy things that are happening around you. But life has to go on because what other choice do you have? Right. that's that's incredible. Yeah. what's the community like over there. Like you're, you're allowed into Myanmar right. No you're not allowed. No. Oh wow. Okay. I didn't even know that. Yeah. Wow. You're not even allowed there. So what's, what's what's the community like over there that, that you used to have around the podcast, do they find ways to listen? Do they still talk to you?
Joah (00:22:41) - Yeah. well, you know, I as many people have lost my life in Myanmar as it was, I, my loss is nothing compared to the the tremendous loss of so many Burmese that, like, 1988, don't know when they'll ever be able to go home.
Joah (00:22:57) - Are we looking at one year? Are we looking at 20 years? and so that part is devastating. And creating those, those homes outside. But in Burma, when I was starting out, because it was a I'm always happy when I meet people that was like, I've been following you since your very first started with the Buddhist stuff. Wow. and, and we were starting to get some attention from some local media saying, hey, there's this podcast kind of telling these interesting stories, and I but to be honest, I, I wouldn't say those first couple of years, we had much of a community outside of those who knew knew. Right. where we are now, we I think most people involved in Myanmar in one form or another, they they've heard some interview or the others. So they often know my voice before they know me, which is which is something getting used to. We're the only real consistent long. Form English language podcast that's talking on the subject of Myanmar. And so and because there's such limited information available, people who care tend to care deeply and consume whatever they find.
Joah (00:23:53) - which is also great because it opens doors. It's it's lovely when you meet someone and they immediately start by following up on an anecdote you told or a conversation you had, and you can kind of segue right into that. So I think there's there's quite a community and very intentionally wanting to create kind of a people's platform that feels like this is a place where, where, where honest and genuine dialogue happens. You can come from whoever you are, you can come and there's a room for your voice and your perspective. And these is all pieces of the puzzle together we're sharing.
Greg (00:24:23) - Interesting. Yeah, boy I didn't I totally skipped over the fact that you weren't even allowed back in the country anymore. Maybe you told me that before I forgot, but that's pretty gnarly. And again, this goes back to what we were saying about how these podcasts, if they stayed under the radar to a to, to enough of an extent that people don't care. But once you hit that threshold, that tipping point, then real repercussions can happen.
Joah (00:24:45) - Well, I don't know if I could go back in, I, I, I haven't tried and I wouldn't try because even there's not to say I couldn't be arrested and whatever happened to me, but, the real danger is that I would be let back in, and every single person I talked to would then face repercussions. You know, like Clarissa Ward, CNN visit that she talked to vegetable sellers who were then disappeared, you know, hours later. So that is not a risk. I'd put anyone I would I would want to to, to have anyone have to suffer on my account.
Greg (00:25:15) - let's, let's talk nerdy podcast stuff for a second. How do you do it? Do you just do it online? Do you reach out to you cold, cold email people? Do you just ask friends of friends, how how do you put an episode together?
Joah (00:25:27) - Yeah, we do online interviews now since, obviously it's remote. When I was, when I was in Burma, before, this all happened, we were, we were doing in person, which are lovely, as we're doing now.
Joah (00:25:39) - they, in terms of how we do the interviews, you know, we once, once we started to build a certain amount of momentum and people, respecting the ways that we facilitated the conversations and the type of guests that were appearing on. Oh, if this guy is on, there must be must be something worth checking out. And that then, is a gateway and a building block to getting more guests. And right now, honestly, we're deluged, which is wonderful. It's good problem. It's a good problem to have. Yeah. we have, you know, a lot of episodes in production, a lot of people needing to reach out to a lot of stories waiting to be told. And, you know, it's, it is it is such a privilege. I tell people that I feel like the luckiest person in the world, that I get to talk to such luminaries and such inspiring people. They because of what I do, I have an excuse to sit down with them for two hours and ask them anything I want to know.
Joah (00:26:27) - And that's just like it's it's amazing.
Greg (00:26:29) - It it's it's such a privilege when you sit down with someone you admire and respect and really want to learn from and just have an opportunity to to ask them anything. It's so, so nice. That's great man. Where where can people find find the show? everywhere podcasts are found. Yeah.
Joah (00:26:45) - Insight Myanmar podcast. Any anywhere you can get podcasts. I should mention it's insight as in wisdom. Sometimes people hear that as inside, inside, outside. So just to clarify that if you're looking and and we're on all the social media feeds as well, that can be followed.
Greg (00:27:00) - What, what what kind of shows you have coming up? Just interviews with activists, overseas scholars.
Speaker 6 (00:27:06) - Yeah, yeah, yeah, the gamut artists and, you know, some women leaders, ethnic leaders, LGBT voices and, wow, all across the board. It's lovely.
Greg (00:27:16) - Yeah, it's it's such a it's such an interesting podcast because, again, it really shows the depth of, of the culture and the people, and it sometimes gets overshadowed by all the, all the crap that's going on over there.
Greg (00:27:26) - So yeah, keep doing what you're doing man. And let's hope that things over there eventually get on the right path. And, Burma will be back on track to be the, the country that we all want it to be, and we know it can be.
Joah (00:27:37) - Thank you so much for inviting me on here and bringing attention to this and to your listeners. I feel really humbled and honored to be here and reach your audience. Oh, it's our pleasure, man.
Greg (00:27:45) - Like I said, our our show is a smart ass sort of redheaded stepchild podcast. And that's fine. That's the niche we are happy to be in. But there are other, much more serious, podcasts tackling much more serious issues. And if, if, if, you know, our listeners out there are interested in learning more about those things, you know where to go. Yeah. So thank you. Thanks, man. Good to sit down and chat and everyone check out Insight Myanmar podcast okay.
Joah (00:28:07) - Thank you. Yeah.
Ed (00:28:18) - Dude, I really like that. he's got an interesting background. My kind of guy. And, man, you know, we think we have issues to talk about in Thailand. He's dealing with, like, insanity.
Greg (00:28:29) - Serious stuff. And, you know, like our previous episode in this series where we talked with Mike from Vietnam, like, I think he's dealing with a lot of the same issues we do. You know, like there's just certain lines you can't cross. Otherwise you're going to get a little bit bit of attention you might not want, but it's. A different planet in Myanmar. And, José and his team.
Ed (00:28:45) - Yeah. Our like our our lives are not in danger.
Greg (00:28:48) - Exactly, exactly. And and the lives of people we we we talk to like, like you said, you know, there's it's not just him that's got to be worried about what he says, but it's his circle of friends and the people he talks to. And, sure, you know, a lot of people are scared to talk to foreigners and countries like that.
Greg (00:29:03) - So it's it's a it's a heavy, a heavy, price to pay for, for doing a show. But like I said, it's an important show. And also, like he said, it's also very important because it doesn't just focus on the bad things. There's also a ton of really great stuff about Burmese culture, of course. Yeah. The Myanmar people, you know, so it's I'm really glad that he focuses on that stuff as well.
Ed (00:29:25) - Yeah. I mean, that's what makes it truly tragic is that it's such a fascinating country with an interesting past. And, you know, Burma is on near the top of my list of of things I'm guilty about because I really wish I knew Burmese history better and understood the culture better. it's a total coincidence. But last week, I happened to be hanging out with a woman from Burma, which I rarely do. I don't know, I don't know many Burmese people, and had a fairly long chat with her about the situation, and it was fascinating talk.
Ed (00:29:56) - It was fascinating talking to her. She, you know, in Thailand, when you meet Burmese people, you never know who you're going to meet. They could be the the daughter of a general. So there could be a nationalist or supporting the military. And you never know who people are, right? Yeah. Right. and, she told me a fascinating story about how she grew up being very pro-government and very nationalist. And then she had this, like, awakening in university. Has a lot of people do, she met some ethnic, you know, obviously Burma's got a bunch of different ethnic minority minorities. And, she herself was, is Burmese, you know, ethnically and just previously looked down on the ethnic minorities, did not think they really belonged in Burma. Like she just had all that kind of nationalist kind of superiority. And then she just. And then at university, she just met some of these ethnic minorities, and it completely changed her outlook. And now she's a very anti-government.
Ed (00:30:54) - and, she also said something interesting, a little bit surprised about, I brought up, you know, the complicated, legacy of, of British colonialism. You know, this is another thing that, you know, Burma has to deal with, right? And, I was kind of surprised. So she's very anti-government. She's very into, like, defining Burma as this diverse, society with a lot of ethnic minorities. So she, she kind of talks like a, like, kind of a lefty, right? Yeah. and then I brought up and then I brought up the British, and and I was awaiting, you know, I was waiting for her to rip on the British. And she goes, she's like, man, I wish the British would never have left. Like they she she's like, they kept the peace. I was kind of surprised. I obviously she was speaking somewhat tongue in cheek, but I think she's so frustrated by the instability right. Situation that she's, she's actually willing to make a joke about, man, I wish we were still a British colony.
Greg (00:31:49) - Sort of like better the devil you know, right?
Ed (00:31:51) - Yeah, yeah. That's good. It's a good point. Anyway, it was just, I, I really wish I knew more, so I'm glad you did this interview, man. Yeah.
Greg (00:32:00) - And many thanks to Joel for coming on and and chatting and keep up the good work, sir. you're doing important stuff, and and like I said, it's it's extraordinarily complex and hard to understand, but, you know, can understand anything if you don't talk about it. So that's why we're here for sure.
Ed (00:32:13) - Thanks, Joel.
Greg (00:32:14) - All right, let's do something we call would you rather, where one of us picks two contrasting situations tied to Thailand to debate and choose which one we'd prefer? And this week, I am on the hot seat. What do you got?
Ed (00:32:26) - Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna give you a somewhat topical, would you rather, because, as you know, but our listeners don't know, I'm actually recording from Hong Kong right now.
Ed (00:32:37) - And next week on the main show, I'm going to talk all about comparing Hong Kong to Thailand. but you you are more of a regional traveler than I am. And, Thai people, when they take holidays outside of Thailand, they've got a lot of options. Thai people like to go to Singapore, they like Dubai, but they also like Hong Kong, Vietnam. So I figured I'd give you a choice, Mr. Greg. All right. For, let's say, a week, one week holiday. Let's say you're a family man. You got you got your wife, you got your kid. You got a choice. Vietnam or Hong Kong, where do you go?
Greg (00:33:16) - Now, is there a specific place in Vietnam or just anywhere in Vietnam?
Ed (00:33:20) - Well. Maybe it's a little bit unfair, but let's just say you can pick and choose in Vietnam. So I guess, it's a tough call. Okay, well, well, I guess I'll stack it a little bit against Hong Kong and say anywhere in Vietnam, because I know there's a big difference between, like Hanoi, you know, and and Ho Chi Minh City and.
Greg (00:33:40) - Sure, sure.
Ed (00:33:41) - But but I'll let you choose a week in Vietnam or a week in Hong Kong. Holiday from Thailand there. What do you prefer?
Greg (00:33:49) - That's a really interesting one. It's a really good one. you know, I was in Vietnam about a year ago. The wife and son. And we really, really loved it. but also the last time I was in Hong Kong with my wife, my son's never been there. I really loved that, too. I always say that Hong Kong is sort of like it's got the best parts of Bangkok and the best parts of Vancouver, you know, like it's a financial hub. It's it's on it's on a it's on the ocean. It's got a great maritime infrastructure to that. It's all got the Asian weirdness, you know, that we love.
Ed (00:34:20) - Sure, sure.
Greg (00:34:22) - Man, I'm gonna have to say. Do you know what? It's really hard, but I'm going to have to slightly give it over to Hanoi. I'd rather go to Hanoi, and only slightly, because I like Vietnamese food more than I like Chinese food.
Ed (00:34:42) - interesting. Well, I don't want to give away. I don't want to give away next week's show. But I will a little bit. I would take Vietnam all the way. So let me. I'll just leave it. I'll just leave it at that. and, and I'll talk more about it next week. So I guess I guess we agree.
Greg (00:34:59) - We agree. Yeah. And I love Hong Kong. I think it's a modern cool. I love the the downtown, the the markets and the giant buildings and being surrounded, getting on a ferry and going out to the islands like it's a fantastic city. But man, we just I just can't stop talking about the food. The last time I was in in Vietnam, the food is so good.
Ed (00:35:16) - Very good, no doubt. Well, next week listeners check out next week if you want my take on Hong Kong. Nice, nice. So as we mentioned at the beginning of the show, we'd like to say thank you to Joe for letting us his support at the show shout out level.
Ed (00:35:29) - But like we said, that's about all we'll say. Thank you Joe.
Greg (00:35:33) - Thank you sir.
Ed (00:35:35) - A final thanks to all of our patrons who support the show. Patrons get a ton of cool perks and the warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that they're helping and are never ending. Quest for cool content. Find out more by clicking support on our website and connect with us online. Where Bangkok podcasts on social media Bangkok podcast.com on the web or simply Bangkok Podcast at gmail.com. We love hearing from our listeners and always reply to our messages.
Greg (00:36:01) - Yes, you can also listen to each episode on YouTube. You can send us a voicemail through our website that will feature on the show. Find me on threads at VK. Greg, thank you for listening. Everyone. Take it easy out there and we will see you back here next week for our regularly scheduled bonus and regular shows.
Ed (00:36:17) - No doubt about that.
Ed (00:00:28) - So if you're curious to hear what it's like doing a podcast about a place that definitely doesn't appreciate the attention, you'll dig this episode of the Bangkok Podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:00:49) - So I did grow up. And welcome to the Van Gogh podcast.
Greg (00:00:52) - My name is Greg Jorgensen, a Canadian who came to Thailand in 2001 because I had a dream where I ended up like the titular character of my favorite poem, The Cremation of Sam McGee, and there ain't no way I'm going out like a frozen Greg Sichel.
Ed (00:01:07) - I don't even know what that is, but it sounds pretty grim.
Greg (00:01:10) - It's a it's a it's a fantastic poem by Robert Service that you should check out. It's really, really good. It's a bit it's a bit funny. It's a bit dark and it's very Canadian.
Ed (00:01:19) - Okay, I'll check it out. And I'm Ed Knuth, an American who came to Thailand on a one year teaching contract 23 years ago, fell in love with always having the option of at least three different spicy condiments with every meal. So I never left.
Greg (00:01:35) - What's your, This might be better for a love, love or live with, actually. But what's your take of, on vinegar? On noodles?
Ed (00:01:43) - I am in favor of it. In general. I'm pro vinegar on everything.
Greg (00:01:47) - Yeah. Me too. So it's it's a it's a condiment over here. Yeah.
Ed (00:01:51) - True that. Well, it always cracks me up when I look at the condiments on the table. Okay, they're not all spicy, but it's usually, like, hot, hotter and hottest.
Greg (00:02:00) - It's like the temperature in Thailand, right? Like, do you want it hot or do you want to melt your face off? Like.
Ed (00:02:05) - That's right, that's right. We want to say a quick thank you to one of our patrons, Joe, who supports us at the show shout out level. Stick around. After our interview with Joe from the Insight Myanmar podcast. Do you hear why, Joe? Well, nothing really. Our pal Joe wanted to support the show but requested a non shout out which gives us a certain piece bit of an inside joke there. But never mind that our hats are off to Joe.
Greg (00:02:30) - Yeah Joe.
Ed (00:02:32) - We want to give a big thanks to all of our patrons who support the show. Patrons get every episode a day early behind the scenes photos of our interviews, a heads up to send questions to upcoming guests, and access to our discord server to chat with me, Greg, and other listeners around the world. But best of all, patrons like Joe also get an unscripted, uncensored bonus episode every week where we riff on current events and Bangkok topics in a very rare departure.
Ed (00:03:00) - There actually is no bonus show this week due to reasons, but we'll be back next week as usual to learn how to become a patron and get all this good stuff, plus full access to over 700 bonus and regular backup codes. Click this port button at the top of our website.
Greg (00:03:18) - That's right. And as always, if you have a comment or show idea or just want to say hi, head to Bangkok podcast.com and click the little microphone button on the bottom right and leave us a voicemail that will play on the show. And also, I was talking to one of our, a few of our patrons on discord, and it turns out that a few of them also thought that the show shout out level was the show shadow level. So they, they we've got to create like a shadow level of of podcasts of. Oh, that's.
Ed (00:03:45) - Funny, that's funny.
Greg (00:03:47) - Yeah, but it's a shout out. A shout out, shout out, shoot, shoot out as we see in community. All right.
Greg (00:03:56) - Well, in this episode we wrap up our short two part series on our regional podcast, pals with a conversation with our buddy Joe McGee. Now, Joe is one of the names behind the Inside Myanmar podcast, which, as you can imagine, provides insights into Thailand's neighbor to the west. And as you probably know, Myanmar is stuck in a tragic cycle of violence, corruption and war. There's horrible to see. Every time you think the country is going to take a step forward, it somehow manages to take two steps back, but maybe not forever. As recent events have shown, the Inside Myanmar Podcast is a show that takes a look at the awful things that are going on in Myanmar, but also celebrates its rich culture, wonderful people and indomitable spirit something that's sometimes hard to do when everything you say is scrutinized for anything that might offend the powers that be with the possibility of severe repercussions. So to tell us about his journey to Myanmar and the evolution of his fascinating and important podcast, here is my conversation with our buddy Joe McGee.
Greg (00:05:03) - All right. We were sitting here with Joe McGee, my new friend from the Inside Myanmar podcast. Joe, welcome to the Bangkok Podcast.
Joah (00:05:10) - Thank you. It's such a privilege to be here. I've been a listener and fan of yours for years, and it's a thrill to be having this conversation.
Greg (00:05:17) - the privilege is ours. The privilege is ours. So, we we only recently met. We've talked online for a while, but we only recently met in person. It's great to chat here in Bangkok. And, this is part of our series on, I guess we can call. I don't know what we're going to call it when when we actually do the show, but, our regional podcast buddy series or something like that. So, we talked to Mike in Vietnam, and we're talking to you in Myanmar, and, we're sort of just trying to get a temperature and talk to our friends around the region about what they're doing with their shows, because, you know, we're a.
Greg (00:05:48) - And a podcast and stuff like that. So, Inside Myanmar podcast is a really, really interesting show. It's it's much more grown up and serious than our show. I think we're going to rebrand the Bangkok Podcast to like, the most smart ass podcast in Asia, because all the other ones we seem to look at are like, serious.
Joah (00:06:05) - you guys are doing a great job. I love it.
Greg (00:06:07) - We're the only we're the ones that bring a little bit of levity to the situation.
Joah (00:06:10) - Yeah, well, you you bring levity, but you also go into interesting topics. I learned things from your guests, and I enjoy it.
Greg (00:06:15) - Yeah, cool. Well, we're all, like I say, a rising tide lifts all boats. so tell us a little bit about yourself and why. Why Myanmar? How did you end up there?
Joah (00:06:25) - So I ended up in Myanmar because I was I did the passion of meditation and the tradition of Sione Goenka. I, he has, these are the ten day silent retreats you see around the world.
Joah (00:06:36) - And, I had taken several courses, when I was, 23 years old, 22. And I did my first course transformed my life. And I was hearing that the origins of this technique went back to Burma. And so I was intrigued to go there. And this was 2003, when it was, long before any hope of a democratic change it happened. And, and it was very difficult for foreigners to be in the country for longer than a tourist visa. but my one month, stay as a meditator in 2003 was so impactful on my spiritual practice, I wanted to find some way to get back. And that came in 2007. I, I was really fortunate to get a job in my field, which was, training, and I was working for the American Center, which was part of the American Embassy mission, leading training missions. And so for my first several years in Burma, I always tell people my initial Burma experience was, is is, I think, very unique considering the other foreigners I, I meet that are there, that usually come in with one perspective or prism through which they understand the country.
Joah (00:07:40) - But for me, I was spending my work hours doing teaching, training, politics, democracy, human rights, these, these type of, of, of of mindset. And then during my weekends and evenings, I was at monasteries, meditation centers, pagodas, meditating. So it was, so my early Burma experience was trying to understand how to juggle these extraordinarily different worlds that sometimes were separated by a 15 minute walk. Wow.
Greg (00:08:08) - That's man. That's serious. That's heavy stuff, man. How did you get through that, silent meditation? I don't think I can do that.
Joah (00:08:15) - People often say that the silence seems like the hardest thing, but it's, when you actually do it. That's that's the. That's one of the easier ones. That's really the stuff that it pulls up that, it becomes harder, as.
Greg (00:08:24) - I say, about cutting out sugar to like, it's surprisingly easy, although it's always nice to go back and have some sugar.
Joah (00:08:28) - You know, there are monks and nuns in Burma that have not just, done, taken a silent retreat, but have committed to a year or even years of silence, that have taken a vow of silence for years on end.
Greg (00:08:40) - So I saw a picture the other day of some ascetic in Nepal, I think. And he had he had welded a, an iron grate around his neck so he could not lay down.
Joah (00:08:50) - Well, there's a practice in Burma called putting water in your mouth. And what it means is that you, to refrain from speaking foolish or unwise words. You keep water in your mouth at all times so you can't speak.
Greg (00:09:03) - Well, let me know when you get to that stage and we'll we'll have another show on that. Well, that's that's really incredible. And maybe some of our listeners might not know a lot about Burma, but Burma slash Myanmar, it's it's an incredibly complex situation over there. And we're not going to get into the politics of it all. Not directly anyway, on this show. I think we'll leave that up to people like yourself who are, who are or who are more, sort of intelligent and know and well-versed in that area than we are, and, people like, Patrick Winn, who's written some really good books, feature guest on both.
Joah (00:09:35) - Of our podcasts.
Greg (00:09:36) - Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's a great guy. but, let's just say that that it's the situation over there is tragic. Myanmar has so much potential as a culture, as a country, and it's really, really sad to see what's going on. and there are a lot of people in there sort of doing some really good work like yourself and, raising, raising people's interest and, and promoting the issue and trying to, to help the people there. But what I want to focus on now is sort of like making a podcast there. So how did the podcast begin? What's the genesis and what was your mission statement when it began?
Joah (00:10:14) - And sure. So after my job at the embassy ended, American American Center slash embassy, I, I wanted to really delve into the world of monasticism and Buddhism meditation. And in doing so, I, I won't go into the full story now because it's, it's convoluted and, and a lot of surprising twists and turns. But needless to say, I, I ended up, you could say, accidentally creating a kind of amateur documentary about a monk, and which then led to AA4 year project to write a guidebook to Myanmar for meditators and for people coming for spiritual practice and that experience.
Joah (00:10:48) - Put me, and I should mention a very important detail about this, which relates to the podcast, is that this was happening during what's called the transition period, which is when the 20 tens, particularly after 2015, leading before the 2021 coup, where, democratic reforms, to everyone's shock and surprise, started to slowly open the country up.
Greg (00:11:08) - I remember that was mind blowing at the time. Like, what's happening? Yeah.
Joah (00:11:11) - And the reason why that's relevant is that nothing but nothing could happen before the transition of any kind. it was it was under, the freedoms of anyone there were so limited that just in my particular case, a a a white guy wearing a lungi, walking around monasteries, asking a bunch of questions and taking notes would be, a one way ticket out of the country.
Greg (00:11:31) - Yeah. Really interesting. that was a it was a crazy time because it's just it was I mean, it's not even close to a direct comparison, but it's like when they quote unquote legalized weed here, everyone was like, what? Really? No, no, you can't be serious.
Greg (00:11:43) - It was a similar sort of whiplash when that happened in Myanmar. Everyone was like, are you really? And it was too good. It was. People were saying like, is it too good to be true? It turns out maybe it was, but it was a big transition at the time. Was was that a was that a crack in the in the, in the shell, a crack in the door?
Joah (00:12:02) - I think the the if you want to start a hot topic for a, a dinner conversation, just ask Burma people if the transition was a good thing or a sham and see what happens. Yeah, see what food gets against the wall. that's the eternal question. And the coup has changed the dynamics of that question. The short answer I would give is that the transition was authentic and good for some part of the population. that could have extended further. And there were other members of the the ethnic communities, particularly the Rohingya, but also other ethnic minorities, that the benefits of the transition did not extend to.
Greg (00:12:37) - Right. So you're a white guy in a long guy walking around asking questions, making documentaries on monks. How did that end up as a podcast?
Joah (00:12:45) - Yeah. So, well, the documentary went to the guidebook and the guidebook was, was trying to research different spiritual traditions to bring to help meditators who now, because of the transition, because there was more access that, that that you were able to have pilgrimages and more meditators coming in because everything was opening up and not, well, not everything, as we say, but in some select places you did have some opening that was was really wonderful. And as I was working on this guidebook project, I was being asked more and more to give presentations to Buddhist and meditator groups and to, to to write, to, to write things up. And I was getting increasingly uncomfortable as my role as a kind of authority or even gatekeeper. And I started to become aware increasingly how much I didn't know and how many questions I had and how much I was relying on the, just these incredible people that my life journey had taken me to.
Joah (00:13:37) - And I just and being a podcast listener myself, I just felt that what can I do to to to bring the stories in the life of these extraordinarily people that at that time was more focused on Buddhism, meditation, these spiritual journeys, Burmese as well as foreign. how can I bring their their stories and their journey, which I've been so fortunate to, which has shaped my life and understanding and bring that unadulterated voice to the ears of practitioners and yogis and spiritual aspirants everywhere. So that was, the, the initial, formation of the podcast in 2019.
Greg (00:14:11) - but now, now the tone of the podcast, it seems to me, is more is more, taking a close, hard look at the politics and the culture and the conflict that's on the ground. So was that like a transition?
Joah (00:14:23) - And after the. Yeah. So up to the 2021 coup, we were focused more on telling Buddhist and meditator stories. And after the 2021 coup, we we could not in good conscience start sharing stories about the spiritual journey when the monasteries were on fire.
Joah (00:14:37) - They're being bombed by airstrikes, taken over by used as, bases by military. And so we decided to make an emergency transition to a temporary transition at the time to telling wider stories to reach as many people as possible about what was happening in Myanmar and not lose that focus. And in short, that temporary transition became permanent. And that's who we are now. And it's a change I, I love. I would have done that from the start if I thought I could, but but that's that's where we are now.
Greg (00:15:07) - So the obvious question is and, you know, we, we, we grapple with this on our show a lot and we talk about it a lot too, is the issue of self-censorship. There's just certain things that we love to talk about, but we just can't. And that's a reality of living in Thailand and in other countries too. But how do you deal with that? I mean, we we both know people in Thailand who have been critical of things in Burma and who have gotten in trouble in Thailand.
Greg (00:15:30) - So, It's it's fraught with peril. With with with potential. Upset. And, you know, you might get a knock on your door one night. and that's scary. It's it's real scary. So how do you deal with that? I mean, they don't mess around in Burma. Yeah. and if you run afoul of someone important or powerful that can have real life scary consequences. So what what is your take on that? And how do you look at that and deal with it?
Joah (00:15:58) - The way to answer this question is before and after 2021, because everything changed, at that point and before 2021, I would say that, well, rule of law has always been a questionable topic in Burma, and we've done several podcasts with scholars of, of rule of law and how it how to understand it there, but basically there there could be rules in the books that aren't enforced, and there could be, rules that aren't in the books that are enforced. You basically never know.
Joah (00:16:25) - And that makes many things in life in Burma, challenging and confusing and sometimes trying hard to do the right thing can actually get you in more trouble than just kind of trying to have a low profile. So that's kind of some background context. But before 2021, as I say, we were more focused on meditation and Buddhism. So there were a few stories we did that I can say were, if the right or you could say the wrong people had been listening, might have, might have raised some eyebrows, but it would, for an English long form audio medium of a country that few people even understood what a podcast was based on the, where they were with the transition at that time. It was honestly not something that ever occurred to me and maybe ways it should have. after 2021, of course, is a different story because, now you have a fight for legitimacy. And, you know, what we are doing is in full support of and we have the support of the democratic movement of all parts of the Democratic leaders in giving air to their voice.
Joah (00:17:24) - Military. Not so much. We're we're, you know, our page is banned there, and I'm sure they, they don't like very much what we're doing.
Greg (00:17:31) - Oh, interesting. Interesting. It's it's funny you mentioned the, the whole English thing, and, you know, that that's sort of acts as sometimes somewhat of a of a shield, a barrier, you know.
Greg (00:17:41) - If I, if this podcast was in Thai and if we had a million listeners would probably get a lot more scrutiny than, than just two idiots with some microphones in English ranting about, you know, coffee shops or something like that. But you never know. You never know who's listening. But it's, you know, as as you get closer to these controversial topics or talking about issues that the people in charge are tied into, then the interest, I think, goes up. So you just never know who's listening.
Greg (00:18:06) - Get asked a lot how we come up with ideas and and usually it's a shrug of the shoulders going, oh, just stumble into them.
Greg (00:18:13) - I imagine there's no shortage of ideas in, in in Myanmar. Yeah. But I've looked when you look at your, your, your show, a lot of the topics are pretty heavy and pretty sad. And there's no sort of like, happy ending or laughs and jokes. How do you are there any of your shows that, that do sort of have a more of a light touch to them or.
Joah (00:18:35) - Absolutely.
Greg (00:18:36) - How how do you find those and how do you interject them? And another question, I'm talking too much here, but another question. How do you. Does that feel proper? Like, sometimes I feel really silly talking about something goofy when there's so much terrible things going on around me, you know?
Joah (00:18:51) - Let me take your last question first. And immediately after the coup, I was like many people. I was so devastated and just emotionally leveled by all, everyone I cared about being in abject danger and nothing I can do to help them that it was so traumatic, that, it did it did not feel right to do anything but focus on the depth of that trauma and devastation and to get the story out and, and want to share that.
Joah (00:19:15) - And then after some time, I realized, you know, these other stories. I'm kind of withholding interviews that had already been done that weren't being released or interviews of people I could do that felt like it was, kind of bypassing the the harsh reality taking place. I began to realize, you know, those are actually needed to balance. And I look at now my, my monthly offerings of what which episodes we decide to release as being like a balanced meal. And you have to have your, your veggies, your appetizer, your dessert, your appetite for your beverage. And and we have I wouldn't say we necessarily have episodes with a happy ending or that are, that have the kind of banter you talk about on your show, where maybe I'm just, I'm not a funny person or I don't know how to bring it or my humor doesn't translate to podcast, but, but we have stories with artists and, and, and we still have the spiritual stories of people coming. we, we have we have a lot of, we have a lot of stories that are quite to balance those stories that are devastating and justifiably need to be told.
Joah (00:20:18) - We have stories of people that have just done incredible things with their lives that are inspiring, that have overcome odds, that have, that, that have, extraordinary visions and, and, and trajectories that, that come out that leave you feeling, you know, motivated and inspired to look at your own life and what you're doing and how to take their what you're hearing from them and think about how this relates to you. So that's that's very important that we, that we have that balance of all the different kind of storytelling that can take place. And if I could just add one thing onto that, there's a friend of mine who said something I've never forgotten. Her name is theory, and she's been a guest on our show for for many times and brilliant interviews and what she has often said that I always take to heart into mind is do not reduce us to a two dimensional suffering people. We still have our humanity. We laugh, we cry, we, we go out, we do things just like all of you.
Joah (00:21:09) - And so it's very important that in those stories of devastation, were also able to give that full range of humanity that is still continuing to take place even in this time of conflict and strife and trauma.
Greg (00:21:21) - Damn, that was a good answer, man. That's incredible. I totally see where you're coming from, because in the past, for us, when there have been the riots and the coups and the protests and parts of the city are on fire, and there's dead people in the street, the city doesn't stop. people still have to eat. They still have families to raise. They still have responsibilities. And a lot of most people have to work to the best of their ability. so life doesn't stop. And there are still laugh, laughter and, and and and fun and families and friends and social activities and stuff like that, but that I think that just shows the strength of the culture, whether it's Burmese or Thai or wherever. And it shows that the multi-dimensional aspects of it, it has color, it has texture, it has depth.
Greg (00:22:05) - And to ignore those things, your friend is very right. To ignore those things would just be doing it a disservice, because life goes on as shitty as that is sometimes. And despite all the crappy things that are happening around you. But life has to go on because what other choice do you have? Right. that's that's incredible. Yeah. what's the community like over there. Like you're, you're allowed into Myanmar right. No you're not allowed. No. Oh wow. Okay. I didn't even know that. Yeah. Wow. You're not even allowed there. So what's, what's what's the community like over there that, that you used to have around the podcast, do they find ways to listen? Do they still talk to you?
Joah (00:22:41) - Yeah. well, you know, I as many people have lost my life in Myanmar as it was, I, my loss is nothing compared to the the tremendous loss of so many Burmese that, like, 1988, don't know when they'll ever be able to go home.
Joah (00:22:57) - Are we looking at one year? Are we looking at 20 years? and so that part is devastating. And creating those, those homes outside. But in Burma, when I was starting out, because it was a I'm always happy when I meet people that was like, I've been following you since your very first started with the Buddhist stuff. Wow. and, and we were starting to get some attention from some local media saying, hey, there's this podcast kind of telling these interesting stories, and I but to be honest, I, I wouldn't say those first couple of years, we had much of a community outside of those who knew knew. Right. where we are now, we I think most people involved in Myanmar in one form or another, they they've heard some interview or the others. So they often know my voice before they know me, which is which is something getting used to. We're the only real consistent long. Form English language podcast that's talking on the subject of Myanmar. And so and because there's such limited information available, people who care tend to care deeply and consume whatever they find.
Joah (00:23:53) - which is also great because it opens doors. It's it's lovely when you meet someone and they immediately start by following up on an anecdote you told or a conversation you had, and you can kind of segue right into that. So I think there's there's quite a community and very intentionally wanting to create kind of a people's platform that feels like this is a place where, where, where honest and genuine dialogue happens. You can come from whoever you are, you can come and there's a room for your voice and your perspective. And these is all pieces of the puzzle together we're sharing.
Greg (00:24:23) - Interesting. Yeah, boy I didn't I totally skipped over the fact that you weren't even allowed back in the country anymore. Maybe you told me that before I forgot, but that's pretty gnarly. And again, this goes back to what we were saying about how these podcasts, if they stayed under the radar to a to, to enough of an extent that people don't care. But once you hit that threshold, that tipping point, then real repercussions can happen.
Joah (00:24:45) - Well, I don't know if I could go back in, I, I, I haven't tried and I wouldn't try because even there's not to say I couldn't be arrested and whatever happened to me, but, the real danger is that I would be let back in, and every single person I talked to would then face repercussions. You know, like Clarissa Ward, CNN visit that she talked to vegetable sellers who were then disappeared, you know, hours later. So that is not a risk. I'd put anyone I would I would want to to, to have anyone have to suffer on my account.
Greg (00:25:15) - let's, let's talk nerdy podcast stuff for a second. How do you do it? Do you just do it online? Do you reach out to you cold, cold email people? Do you just ask friends of friends, how how do you put an episode together?
Joah (00:25:27) - Yeah, we do online interviews now since, obviously it's remote. When I was, when I was in Burma, before, this all happened, we were, we were doing in person, which are lovely, as we're doing now.
Joah (00:25:39) - they, in terms of how we do the interviews, you know, we once, once we started to build a certain amount of momentum and people, respecting the ways that we facilitated the conversations and the type of guests that were appearing on. Oh, if this guy is on, there must be must be something worth checking out. And that then, is a gateway and a building block to getting more guests. And right now, honestly, we're deluged, which is wonderful. It's good problem. It's a good problem to have. Yeah. we have, you know, a lot of episodes in production, a lot of people needing to reach out to a lot of stories waiting to be told. And, you know, it's, it is it is such a privilege. I tell people that I feel like the luckiest person in the world, that I get to talk to such luminaries and such inspiring people. They because of what I do, I have an excuse to sit down with them for two hours and ask them anything I want to know.
Joah (00:26:27) - And that's just like it's it's amazing.
Greg (00:26:29) - It it's it's such a privilege when you sit down with someone you admire and respect and really want to learn from and just have an opportunity to to ask them anything. It's so, so nice. That's great man. Where where can people find find the show? everywhere podcasts are found. Yeah.
Joah (00:26:45) - Insight Myanmar podcast. Any anywhere you can get podcasts. I should mention it's insight as in wisdom. Sometimes people hear that as inside, inside, outside. So just to clarify that if you're looking and and we're on all the social media feeds as well, that can be followed.
Greg (00:27:00) - What, what what kind of shows you have coming up? Just interviews with activists, overseas scholars.
Speaker 6 (00:27:06) - Yeah, yeah, yeah, the gamut artists and, you know, some women leaders, ethnic leaders, LGBT voices and, wow, all across the board. It's lovely.
Greg (00:27:16) - Yeah, it's it's such a it's such an interesting podcast because, again, it really shows the depth of, of the culture and the people, and it sometimes gets overshadowed by all the, all the crap that's going on over there.
Greg (00:27:26) - So yeah, keep doing what you're doing man. And let's hope that things over there eventually get on the right path. And, Burma will be back on track to be the, the country that we all want it to be, and we know it can be.
Joah (00:27:37) - Thank you so much for inviting me on here and bringing attention to this and to your listeners. I feel really humbled and honored to be here and reach your audience. Oh, it's our pleasure, man.
Greg (00:27:45) - Like I said, our our show is a smart ass sort of redheaded stepchild podcast. And that's fine. That's the niche we are happy to be in. But there are other, much more serious, podcasts tackling much more serious issues. And if, if, if, you know, our listeners out there are interested in learning more about those things, you know where to go. Yeah. So thank you. Thanks, man. Good to sit down and chat and everyone check out Insight Myanmar podcast okay.
Joah (00:28:07) - Thank you. Yeah.
Ed (00:28:18) - Dude, I really like that. he's got an interesting background. My kind of guy. And, man, you know, we think we have issues to talk about in Thailand. He's dealing with, like, insanity.
Greg (00:28:29) - Serious stuff. And, you know, like our previous episode in this series where we talked with Mike from Vietnam, like, I think he's dealing with a lot of the same issues we do. You know, like there's just certain lines you can't cross. Otherwise you're going to get a little bit bit of attention you might not want, but it's. A different planet in Myanmar. And, José and his team.
Ed (00:28:45) - Yeah. Our like our our lives are not in danger.
Greg (00:28:48) - Exactly, exactly. And and the lives of people we we we talk to like, like you said, you know, there's it's not just him that's got to be worried about what he says, but it's his circle of friends and the people he talks to. And, sure, you know, a lot of people are scared to talk to foreigners and countries like that.
Greg (00:29:03) - So it's it's a it's a heavy, a heavy, price to pay for, for doing a show. But like I said, it's an important show. And also, like he said, it's also very important because it doesn't just focus on the bad things. There's also a ton of really great stuff about Burmese culture, of course. Yeah. The Myanmar people, you know, so it's I'm really glad that he focuses on that stuff as well.
Ed (00:29:25) - Yeah. I mean, that's what makes it truly tragic is that it's such a fascinating country with an interesting past. And, you know, Burma is on near the top of my list of of things I'm guilty about because I really wish I knew Burmese history better and understood the culture better. it's a total coincidence. But last week, I happened to be hanging out with a woman from Burma, which I rarely do. I don't know, I don't know many Burmese people, and had a fairly long chat with her about the situation, and it was fascinating talk.
Ed (00:29:56) - It was fascinating talking to her. She, you know, in Thailand, when you meet Burmese people, you never know who you're going to meet. They could be the the daughter of a general. So there could be a nationalist or supporting the military. And you never know who people are, right? Yeah. Right. and, she told me a fascinating story about how she grew up being very pro-government and very nationalist. And then she had this, like, awakening in university. Has a lot of people do, she met some ethnic, you know, obviously Burma's got a bunch of different ethnic minority minorities. And, she herself was, is Burmese, you know, ethnically and just previously looked down on the ethnic minorities, did not think they really belonged in Burma. Like she just had all that kind of nationalist kind of superiority. And then she just. And then at university, she just met some of these ethnic minorities, and it completely changed her outlook. And now she's a very anti-government.
Ed (00:30:54) - and, she also said something interesting, a little bit surprised about, I brought up, you know, the complicated, legacy of, of British colonialism. You know, this is another thing that, you know, Burma has to deal with, right? And, I was kind of surprised. So she's very anti-government. She's very into, like, defining Burma as this diverse, society with a lot of ethnic minorities. So she, she kind of talks like a, like, kind of a lefty, right? Yeah. and then I brought up and then I brought up the British, and and I was awaiting, you know, I was waiting for her to rip on the British. And she goes, she's like, man, I wish the British would never have left. Like they she she's like, they kept the peace. I was kind of surprised. I obviously she was speaking somewhat tongue in cheek, but I think she's so frustrated by the instability right. Situation that she's, she's actually willing to make a joke about, man, I wish we were still a British colony.
Greg (00:31:49) - Sort of like better the devil you know, right?
Ed (00:31:51) - Yeah, yeah. That's good. It's a good point. Anyway, it was just, I, I really wish I knew more, so I'm glad you did this interview, man. Yeah.
Greg (00:32:00) - And many thanks to Joel for coming on and and chatting and keep up the good work, sir. you're doing important stuff, and and like I said, it's it's extraordinarily complex and hard to understand, but, you know, can understand anything if you don't talk about it. So that's why we're here for sure.
Ed (00:32:13) - Thanks, Joel.
Greg (00:32:14) - All right, let's do something we call would you rather, where one of us picks two contrasting situations tied to Thailand to debate and choose which one we'd prefer? And this week, I am on the hot seat. What do you got?
Ed (00:32:26) - Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna give you a somewhat topical, would you rather, because, as you know, but our listeners don't know, I'm actually recording from Hong Kong right now.
Ed (00:32:37) - And next week on the main show, I'm going to talk all about comparing Hong Kong to Thailand. but you you are more of a regional traveler than I am. And, Thai people, when they take holidays outside of Thailand, they've got a lot of options. Thai people like to go to Singapore, they like Dubai, but they also like Hong Kong, Vietnam. So I figured I'd give you a choice, Mr. Greg. All right. For, let's say, a week, one week holiday. Let's say you're a family man. You got you got your wife, you got your kid. You got a choice. Vietnam or Hong Kong, where do you go?
Greg (00:33:16) - Now, is there a specific place in Vietnam or just anywhere in Vietnam?
Ed (00:33:20) - Well. Maybe it's a little bit unfair, but let's just say you can pick and choose in Vietnam. So I guess, it's a tough call. Okay, well, well, I guess I'll stack it a little bit against Hong Kong and say anywhere in Vietnam, because I know there's a big difference between, like Hanoi, you know, and and Ho Chi Minh City and.
Greg (00:33:40) - Sure, sure.
Ed (00:33:41) - But but I'll let you choose a week in Vietnam or a week in Hong Kong. Holiday from Thailand there. What do you prefer?
Greg (00:33:49) - That's a really interesting one. It's a really good one. you know, I was in Vietnam about a year ago. The wife and son. And we really, really loved it. but also the last time I was in Hong Kong with my wife, my son's never been there. I really loved that, too. I always say that Hong Kong is sort of like it's got the best parts of Bangkok and the best parts of Vancouver, you know, like it's a financial hub. It's it's on it's on a it's on the ocean. It's got a great maritime infrastructure to that. It's all got the Asian weirdness, you know, that we love.
Ed (00:34:20) - Sure, sure.
Greg (00:34:22) - Man, I'm gonna have to say. Do you know what? It's really hard, but I'm going to have to slightly give it over to Hanoi. I'd rather go to Hanoi, and only slightly, because I like Vietnamese food more than I like Chinese food.
Ed (00:34:42) - interesting. Well, I don't want to give away. I don't want to give away next week's show. But I will a little bit. I would take Vietnam all the way. So let me. I'll just leave it. I'll just leave it at that. and, and I'll talk more about it next week. So I guess I guess we agree.
Greg (00:34:59) - We agree. Yeah. And I love Hong Kong. I think it's a modern cool. I love the the downtown, the the markets and the giant buildings and being surrounded, getting on a ferry and going out to the islands like it's a fantastic city. But man, we just I just can't stop talking about the food. The last time I was in in Vietnam, the food is so good.
Ed (00:35:16) - Very good, no doubt. Well, next week listeners check out next week if you want my take on Hong Kong. Nice, nice. So as we mentioned at the beginning of the show, we'd like to say thank you to Joe for letting us his support at the show shout out level.
Ed (00:35:29) - But like we said, that's about all we'll say. Thank you Joe.
Greg (00:35:33) - Thank you sir.
Ed (00:35:35) - A final thanks to all of our patrons who support the show. Patrons get a ton of cool perks and the warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that they're helping and are never ending. Quest for cool content. Find out more by clicking support on our website and connect with us online. Where Bangkok podcasts on social media Bangkok podcast.com on the web or simply Bangkok Podcast at gmail.com. We love hearing from our listeners and always reply to our messages.
Greg (00:36:01) - Yes, you can also listen to each episode on YouTube. You can send us a voicemail through our website that will feature on the show. Find me on threads at VK. Greg, thank you for listening. Everyone. Take it easy out there and we will see you back here next week for our regularly scheduled bonus and regular shows.
Ed (00:36:17) - No doubt about that.
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