Stuart McDonald from Travelfish on Tourism Recovery in Thailand Through Visas, Backpackers...and Weed? [S7.E15]

Greg (00:00:05) - On this episode, we welcome back our old pal Stuart MacDonald from Travel Fish to talk about the recovery of tourism in Thailand.

Ed (00:00:12) - So if you have any questions about the latest developments in overtourism, secondary destinations and much more, you'll dig this episode of the Bangkok Podcast.

Greg (00:00:36) - So I declare up and welcome to the Bangkok Podcast. My name is Greg Jorgensen, Canadian who came to Thailand in 2001 on a vacation but decided to stay when. True story. I found my first mobile phone in the street on Tong Lau and finally felt like I belong. R.I.P. Nokia 3310.

Ed (00:00:53) - Dude, those 33 tens were iconic. I had one for probably 3 or 4 years there.

Greg (00:00:58) - Invincible. Someone's out. Someone out there still has my phone and he's using it somewhere.

Ed (00:01:01) - Yeah, that's probably true. And I met Knuth, an American who came to Thailand on a one year teaching contract 23 years ago, fell in love with strategically planning my travel during the Songkran holidays to avoid getting soaked, so I never left.

Greg (00:01:17) - That is a good one. But are you doing anything this Songkran? Are you like just for listeners? We're recording this just a few days before Songkran. Actually, to give us a little bit of a break. You got any plans?

Ed (00:01:26) - The truth is, I'm going to strategically avoid getting soaked. Except for the first time in several years, on one afternoon, I have a plan to meet some friends because I'm a friend of mine. Her boyfriend has never done Songkran before. He's an American guy. I've never done Songkran, so I think I'm actually going to get drenched for the first time in many years.

Greg (00:01:44) - Wow. Well, have fun with that.

Ed (00:01:47) - Have you partaken, partaken? Partaken in a long time?

Greg (00:01:51) - Partook? Yes, of course I have a kid, so I've got to go out every year.

Ed (00:01:54) - Oh, you've been going. That's correct. You've been going out. So I haven't done it in a long time. It might be ten years for me.

Greg (00:01:59) - Usually we just go to a mall or something simple like that.

Greg (00:02:01) - But I haven't been down to, to to see Lamar or anything crazy for a while. But I think it'll.

Ed (00:02:06) - Be with your son. You you you you throw water, do you. Not with your son or. No.

Greg (00:02:10) - Yeah, yeah, he's got a big guy. He's got a big water gun ready to go and cool. Usually go down to one of the malls and they've got like a nice little kid friendly area out the back.

Ed (00:02:18) - Maybe I'll come by and blast him in the face.

Greg (00:02:21) - That'd be great. Hey, turn around and say hi to Uncle Ed. Uncle Ed says hello to my little friend.

Ed (00:02:28) - I was just going to. Yeah, you stole my line. Damn it! Sorry.

Greg (00:02:32) - That's what you say. What? Do you have a gun shooting at someone unsuspecting. Anyway, it'll be fun. All right.

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Greg (00:03:44) - Yeah baby. And as always, if you have a comment, a show idea, or just want to say hi or Happy Songkran, hit the Bangkok podcast. Com click the little microphone button on the bottom right and leave us a voicemail that we can play on the show for sure.

Greg (00:03:56) - Alrighty then. On part two of two, we welcome back our old friend, one of Asia's original travelers and travel writers, one Mr. Stewart McDonald from Travel Dawg. The last time Stu was on the show before last week, that is way back in 2018 for episode 12 of season three. Talking about, funnily enough, over tourism. Now, little did we know that a year after we recorded that show, Thailand's tourism industry would be stopped dead in its tracks by Covid, from which things are only now recovering from. So we were happy that we were able to sit down with Stu again to talk about Thailand's tourism recovery, the scourge of, quote unquote, high quality tourists, their obsession with soft power and what the devil's lettuce can add or take away from the tourism equation in Thailand. So here is a part two of our conversation with Stu.

Ed (00:04:48) - So one thing I like about this, this issue of sustainable tourism, it's it's actually different from the normal dichotomy of. environmentalism versus business. So. Because.

Ed (00:05:02) - Because I'm a veteran of, you know, American political wars. And it's always like lefties care about the environment and then people on the right care about business and they care about human beings. Well, while lefties are fighting for the spotted owl, right. You know, but this is different because what you're saying is that if you want to preserve the tourism business, you have to preserve the environment. You have to give people a reason to go there. So it's not choosing one, like, or you're at least trying to make the argument that if you want, if you want to like the beaches or whatever it is, it's like you can't overwhelm these areas, destroy the environment, because then no one will want to go there anymore. You know. Yeah. So this is kind of like you can be pro-environment and pro-business if you do it right. Yeah.

Stuart (00:05:45) - If you're, if you're balancing things, I think the one of the issues with the whole sustainable tourism thing is it has come out of a development like it's a development driven kind of, oh, I see, thing, you know, it's not like, we're not getting into de-growth and that kind of stuff where although, like Thailand could certainly do with that on a, on a tourism, base, it's just about like, how do we guarantee that there is still going to be something worth going to in 20 years from now? Because if there isn't, that's a problem for these countries in Southeast Asia are the overly dependent on on tourism.

Greg (00:06:25) - I want to talk a little bit about the bureaucrats in Thailand, their obsession with high quality tourists.

Ed (00:06:32) - Oh, God.

Greg (00:06:37) - No, I was talking about this with on discord with some of our patrons, and I mentioned to the you were coming on and one of them, who goes by the name of Corporal Zad, don't know his real name, but Corporal Zod, this is for you. He said he was like. He's like, see if he can throw you this question, he said. So the younger backpackers spend more at local places and stay longer. That scans for me, is the fact that they're not being courted by the government in the at any big interests, mainly due to the fact that smaller local places don't have any sort of lobbying power. Has it been any attempt to try to create a trade organization or lobbying arm for these small fry to be able to pool their influence and compete to grab the ears, quote unquote, of policymakers?

Stuart (00:07:13) - Yeah.

Stuart (00:07:14) - Good question. Yeah. I mean, I totally agree, I totally agree. Like, I'm I'm a reformed backpacker. And I think on a if you look at tourism through, development, sort of, like floating everybody's boats, backpackers, they stay longer, they stay in more diverse areas. They tend to spend more directly with local people, and they have a lower rate of leakage. So leakage is like if you have, say if you have an inbound tour coming here from the UK and you let's say you spend $10,000 on that tour, to Thailand, excluding flights, typically somewhere between 3 and 4000 of those dollars would stay in Thailand. The rest is a leakage. So it's about 60%. it can be much higher. Luxury is definitely the most leakage prone area, to your imported foods or your FMB or that kind of stuff. Sure. So and this sort of gets to the core of this idiocy about quality tourists, because the way and this isn't just a Thailand thing, it's very prevalent in Indonesia and Vietnam as well, where they talk about we want quality tourists, but what they really mean is we want people to come stay a short time, spend a lot of money and leave Turkey.

Stuart (00:08:39) - The turnover they want, what they what they really mean is high spending tourists. Sure. Of course. but they're ignoring that at that end of the stick. They're very leaky tourists. So even though they might be spending more money, more of that money is getting offshored or it's going to the right, you.

Ed (00:09:00) - Know, it's it's when you decide, hey, I want to appeal to the wealthiest or really wealthy people. Well, then you need, five star hotels like those people. Those are the people who can go anywhere in the world. So, you know, you have to compete with Paris and New York, and you know what I mean? And so you then you have to have a Hilton or something like that, which, of course is going to be more leakage to use your terms. Yeah. So it's like to me it's if you're a destination, you have to play to what your strengths are and not to try to recreate another high. So thing. Right. Because a high school thing could almost be anywhere.

Ed (00:09:36) - Yeah.

Stuart (00:09:37) - I mean this is like the you take like six senses as an example, the luxury hotel chain there that, that sort of stick and look of those properties is now very common. You know, you'll see that kind of thing everywhere. It's generic and it's totally generic. And so from. from the destination's point of view, investing in that kind of stuff is really high risk because the punter can just as easily go to Vietnam or Bali or whatever. Sure. The exact same experience, right?

Greg (00:10:09) - but if you're dealing with, like, homestays and local and local experiences that are totally unique and set up by the locals and the families, it's it's got a much more direct benefit to the community.

Stuart (00:10:19) - Absolutely. The money is going to that old lady or whoever is running the business. You know, this.

Ed (00:10:25) - Reminds me, this reminds me of the the it's basically been a 20 year debacle, the Thailand elite visa or whatever. It I remember when this was under toxin when they first proposed it.

Ed (00:10:36) - My jaw dropped. I don't know if you remember this, but the original plan is that it was going to cost $1 million. Yeah, that was the original plan. And then and then and in the the government under toxin estimated they would sell 25,000. And I and I was just reading this like, what on what planet do you live? Yeah. Yeah I mean and and then I don't even know the status of that program now it's changed like a million times, but it's like way cheaper now.

Greg (00:11:04) - Like whatever it is, is putting the price up though, though.

Ed (00:11:06) - They clearly, I think, don't understand this elite.

Stuart (00:11:10) - Right. Yeah. And I think, I mean, like I said earlier, Thailand is a very easy place to, to travel in. It's reasonably safe and affordable and all that kind of stuff. I mean, what the Tat keeps coming out with, like they come out with some campaign and it's like, my God, you know, like I had no idea where they get their ideas from, you know.

Stuart (00:11:34) - but they came up with something last year that was trying to encourage people to travel to like the second tier destinations and that kind of stuff, particularly up in Iceland and that kind of thing. And I think that's smart. Sure. Yeah, that's a good and but the thing is that, I mean, if you go back to like the early 90s, you could go up country in Thailand almost anywhere and there would be not only would there be backpackers, but there would be small little homestays and guesthouses and that kind of thing. Now not so much, you know, when Vietnam last Cambodia were all opened up, then people started traveling much further and they still only got the three months. So instead of spending three months in Thailand, they were spending three months in Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. And so you run out of time, I see, I see so you go like up to, I don't know, tap Panama or mass art or something like that, where there used to be great little guest houses and they're all gone now.

Stuart (00:12:30) - so I think it would be great for them to come up with, inventive, imaginative ideas of of ways to get people up into other parts of the country. But I don't see a lot. I mean, you were asking earlier about. Well, the guy who sent you the question, Mr. Zod. Corporal Zod. I just don't think, like, there is a lot of anti backpacker stuff that comes from governments. They're like, oh, they're taking drugs and.

Ed (00:13:06) - Sleeping.

Stuart (00:13:06) - With our women and all this kind of stuff, you know, and it's it's like guys like, take a step back and think about it. You know, if you really want to be supporting a part of the business, part of the industry, that is low impact, that is going to, disperse where tourists are, then budget travel is like it's the obvious.

Ed (00:13:31) - It's also how people fall in love with Thailand and end up staying a long time. Right. Exactly.

Greg (00:13:36) - And they become advocates. They become ambassadors for Thailand.

Ed (00:13:39) - They come back, you know, repeat tourists that we've talked about, right? Yeah.

Greg (00:13:42) - Like the, the, we were talking about this whole new ridiculous soft power thing, but there are some good things about it where they were talking about a muay Thai visa, like, it's a great I think it's a great idea. The people here make them fall in love with Thailand. And then when they go back, they're going to be spreading the love, you know?

Ed (00:13:55) - I mean.

Stuart (00:13:56) - A lot of it comes back like everyone is forever moaning about visas and all of this kind of stuff, you know? And like, I've written numerous pieces saying Thailand should have a six month, backpacker visa, of course. And then but then Thais will come back and say, oh yeah, but then farang will use it to work illegally. And it's like, yeah, some probably will, you know, but the net result will probably be, increase in people traveling here for sure.

Ed (00:14:25) - But what can backpackers do? They can teach English or maybe work online like be digital nomads, which doesn't really hurt Thailand anyway.

Ed (00:14:32) - Like they're not going to take a Thai person job. Yeah, yeah. As a and again.

Greg (00:14:35) - There's just not hordes of people overseas like I wish I could go and work in Thais just that damn visa problem.

Ed (00:14:40) - Right right right right right. Well, yeah.

Stuart (00:14:42) - It's sort of acknowledging the fact that a lot of people want to work when they're here because they want to stay here. That's right.

Ed (00:14:48) - No. Right. well, they were talking about digital nomad visa. Is there is there one now that that was a thing. That was I thought they were working on it or something.

Stuart (00:14:56) - Keep the same in Indonesia. But I think the digital nomad thing sounds good in principle, but the taxation like it gets very, very complicated. It sounds really great when you're writing it on the back of a beer coaster, but when you sit down to actually figure out the math and how it's going to work, it gets super complex, super fast.

Ed (00:15:15) - How about a weed visa?

Greg (00:15:16) - Come here and learn how to, like, grow marijuana for three months? I mean, yeah, why not? You know, people lined up.

Ed (00:15:21) - It's part of Thai traditional medicine. A Thai traditional medicine visa is right.

Stuart (00:15:25) - I mean, the like just to stick with the weed for a segue, like we were talking earlier. I mean, I just find it astonishing, you know, like when we were living here, it was very different, situation with, with weed and, and now there's like more pot shops and mini marts. It's just to.

Ed (00:15:43) - Me, I've seen very little harm from it. I mean, I think I think there's too many shops now. And, you know, I think the market a little shake out that's a free market. But if, if I feel like if we've learned anything is that there's really no harm to recreational weed, even though the government now is insisting they don't want recreational, I'm like, why not? It's like, what? What's what horrible thing has happened in the last 18 months?

Stuart (00:16:06) - I think they could probably take a bit of a step back. I think there is too much of it.

Stuart (00:16:11) - Like there's there's too many shops. It's a little bit too easy.

Ed (00:16:14) - A little bit too easy, right?

Stuart (00:16:15) - Yeah. And and this is really just a gut feeling. And I don't know that there's any, any connection between this and the and the pot. but it does definitely seem like I'm staying in Chinatown. There is definitely more homeless and I would say mentally distressed looking people interesting than I ever remember seeing here before. I.

Ed (00:16:42) - I don't see how that could be connected to the cannabis, but who knows? I mean, well, yeah.

Stuart (00:16:46) - I don't know whether it's yaba or whatever, but yeah, like a lot of women sleeping rough on the side of the road, which I don't remember ever seeing here.

Ed (00:16:56) - I mean, still, compared to other cities, there's not that many homeless here, but it may be more than before.

Stuart (00:17:00) - Yeah, yeah, but like I said, I don't know if there's any connection. Like, it could be like, something totally unrelated.

Ed (00:17:07) - Do you think, do you, or have you studied or come across data on cannabis affecting the number of tourists? Like, do you have any idea? No.

Ed (00:17:16) - I wonder if there's been any research to figure that out or surveys is.

Stuart (00:17:20) - There's been, like a lot of conjecture about it. And I think it's.

Ed (00:17:25) - I mean, if I was choosing I mean, so I've never been to Bali, I've always wanted to go. But the fact if I, if I had to choose between Thailand, where I knew I could smoke and then Bali, I knew it couldn't, I would probably come to Thailand, right? Yeah.

Stuart (00:17:39) - And I think that's very true. You know, the penalties. Major, very hot, very harsh.

Ed (00:17:47) - I don't have to worry about it. Right.

Stuart (00:17:48) - Yeah. but I don't know that it's. On one hand. Well, this is the thing. Like on one hand, the saying we want quality to us, on the other hand lets everyone get hit and get stoned, you know, and that's quality. I mean, quality tourism. The park's not cheap, you know, but, I don't know if that's quite what they were thinking.

Ed (00:18:07) - This could possibly all fit together in that, you know, one, we've talked we've done it several shows about the, you know, cannabis laws. And one of the problems that has happened, it's not really an effect on Thai society, but one of the problems is there's a lot, a lot of the weed here is illegally smuggled in because there's an excess in the West, especially Canada. Apparently Canada just has warehouses full of weed, and so people have been illegally importing it. And so the so Thai farmers have not been benefiting to the extent that they should. So yeah. So this is so this is one of the I mean there's different factions that are trying to reregulate things. But to me the good faction, it wants stricter punishment on smuggling. And they want they've set up a way to, certify the weed from the Thai farmer to the store to make sure it was grown here. Right. And I support that, like 1,000,000%. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Because I want, you know, in a way, it's I guess in a way it's kind of a type of leakage is what's happening.

Ed (00:19:11) - Is these Canadian Canadians nothing wrong with Canadians in Canada, you know, but you get they have an excess. And so they're dumping it very cheaply, but they're still making money, you know, dumping their excess.

Greg (00:19:23) - Canada grows on the side.

Ed (00:19:23) - Of the road. And then the and then the Thai farmers don't, you know. So a huge amount of the wheat here is apparently elite like my, my buddy who's a consultant in the business, he thinks it's 50 to 75% of the wheat is illegally imported. Wow. Because historically, it's not that hard to get things in Thailand illegally, even in a large quantity. Right? anyone.

Greg (00:19:45) - Who's read the novel Mr. Nice, he had a pretty significant operation. I mean, coming through.

Ed (00:19:50) - Here when we were.

Stuart (00:19:51) - Living here. So, like, through the late 90s into early 2000, a friend would go down to the, the PS club and they would buy it off the pallet. Oh, wow. And there were these they were shaped like chocolate bars.

Stuart (00:20:07) - They have this big, so thick like this.

Ed (00:20:10) - You seem to know a lot about that. Oh.

Stuart (00:20:12) - I heard about it.

Ed (00:20:13) - From a friend. Friend? His friend, you know, but that.

Stuart (00:20:15) - Stuff all supposedly talking to this guy was. It came from Cock Kong in Cambodia and would come across and then bring it down the river. Gotcha.

Ed (00:20:25) - seeing.

Greg (00:20:25) - Us do earlier that we should do. I famously have never tried smoking marijuana, but we should do a show where I smoke up at the beginning and then just say.

Ed (00:20:33) - I would love to experience that. I'll be your tour guide. Mr. Greg, what a role model for me. I've become much more of a connoisseur like I, you know, I've smoked for a long time, but I was never a pothead. Even though I look like one. You know, I was. I wasn't going to say anything. No, the honest to God truth is, I've always been a casual smoker, always enjoyed it. But since it's been legal, I've, kicked it up a notch my up to my consumption, and I'm, I'm much more of a connoisseur now because there's so many varieties and it's I know it's just it's so I like to experiment and try this and try that.

Ed (00:21:06) - It's it's pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, I'm loving it. I was.

Stuart (00:21:09) - on Carson the other night. I went up to have a look and put my finger on the pulse of that little.

Ed (00:21:14) - Just doing research, of course. Yeah, yeah.

Stuart (00:21:16) - And, Yeah, I mean, I spent some time in some of the shops and everyone's really friendly, and I'm like, I don't even understand what half of this means. Sure. You know, please explain it to me. and they were very patient, and it was fun. It's just.

Ed (00:21:31) - Not harmful. That's like, I know I'm repeating myself, but this is just to me, this has been, you know, an 18 month experiment in, in essentially recreational weed. It's a totally unregulated, you know, we had, our, our, a woman named Kitty Chipaca on the, on the show, and she's become kind of a ganja preneur. Yeah, she's a entrepreneur, but she's she's been on a million podcasts, like interviewed on CNN.

Ed (00:21:56) - She's, but she's she sees herself as an advocate for the, like, local farmers. And she just said there's more regulations on garlic than there is on weed. And in Thailand now, like it's essentially just open it is a free for all.

Greg (00:22:11) - That I have smoked.

Ed (00:22:12) - Right, right. So, so so to me, to me that's the worst possible case. Yet I don't see the harm other than there's probably too many shops and maybe it smells bad in some.

Greg (00:22:24) - It does kind of stink.

Ed (00:22:25) - You know, I don't like it. So to me it's this is proof that recreational doesn't really have a big downside.

Stuart (00:22:30) - Yeah. I mean, when we were on cookout, in December and, my daughter and I went diving and all three of, dive shops we went into to talk to about the diving and everything. They're all baked, right, you know, and I mean, I don't mind talking to people, but when I'm there wanting to look. Gear and check that stuff is safe and that kind of thing.

Ed (00:22:56) - You don't want your dive instructor to be baked properly.

Stuart (00:22:58) - I would prefer you are not stoned. Yeah, sure. You know. so I think there's some. That's what I mean when I said earlier about taking a bit of a step back. I agree of, you know, agreed. but, generally. Yeah, it's it's certainly interesting.

Ed (00:23:13) - I mean, they have to find a way to make sure Thai farmers are benefiting. Yeah, they realize.

Stuart (00:23:18) - That it's just a.

Ed (00:23:19) - Horrible. It's a horrible. I mean, this is what Katy just talks about over and over again, that Thai farmers are getting ripped off. and it's all due to Canada, right?

Stuart (00:23:28) - Blame Canada. Yeah, they're all trouble.

Ed (00:23:30) - But, I mean, the bottom line is it could be if tat was smart about it, then it could be one of the facets of Thai tourism, like if handled correctly. because there's a lot of people that, you know, I'm, it's very rare, but I occasionally have to go to Dubai or fly through Dubai.

Ed (00:23:49) - And I once read a story about a random guy from Jamaica who got harassed in Dubai because they were so sure he he would have weed. You know, he's just some Rasta guy. And they totally, thoroughly searched him and he was very careful and had no weed. And then they check the bottom of his shoe, and there was one cannabis seed stuck in the bottom of his shoe. And he got a he got arrested. And so and this was in the news, this was in the news because like the Jamaican government protested this whole thing. And ever since then I've been super paranoid because I'm always afraid I have like a little baggie, like in my shirt. I forgot this shirt pocket. You know.

Greg (00:24:22) - There's one thing that helps paranoia. It's smoking weed, right?

Ed (00:24:25) - You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And so Thailand, which is if I was, if I didn't already live here and I had to choose between, you know, like Bali or wherever or, you know, because it's, it's almost illegal everywhere else, like Malaysia.

Ed (00:24:36) - Right. Singapore. Yeah. I mean, I would come here for sure. Yeah. So could boost tourism.

Stuart (00:24:42) - Yeah. I think like that's a really interesting point about like, like how could you turn that into a tourism thing other than just sitting around getting baked. Right, right. So I know I keep going back to Bali, but it's just like a I'm quite familiar with it. So there's a thing there about bamboo. So they do all the bamboo architecture and they make some incredible buildings and stuff. And so they, they have set up a, an education center, which is super popular with foreigners. But, Indonesians do it as well, where they're trained how to grow the bamboo sustainably, how to treat, how to build with it, like all of that kind of stuff. And, I mean, it's never going to be a huge part of the industry, but it's an important little bit and people will come and do that course, which goes for like a week or something like that, and then you go and do other stuff.

Greg (00:25:34) - But there's so many ancillary benefits to that. Those people leave Bali and they're like, I did the most amazing thing in Bali. Exactly.

Stuart (00:25:39) - So, so with the pot, you get some like Thai farmers who are growing and go up, show me how you make it. I don't want to sound like a wanker, but to say a more sophisticated way of pushing it.

Ed (00:25:49) - True. That's I think that's legit.

Stuart (00:25:51) - Rather than just saying, hey, look, he's a really stoned person. Like on Khao San. Yeah. And then it's like, oh, okay. Well, and that's super interesting. You know.

Greg (00:26:00) - People leave here with a massage certificate. Why not, six week.

Ed (00:26:04) - Like, growing cannabis thing. Well, we're running into the we're running into the perennial problem. Greg. And I've talked about this. It's that there's something weird about the Thai government is that they they can never be officially liberal. Right? So even though everyone knows there's all kinds of liberal stuff happening in Thailand that everyone knows about, it's the Thai government never admits to being, like, liberal about anything, right? Like officially they have to be conservative about everything, even if on the ground it has nothing to do with reality.

Stuart (00:26:33) - Right? Yeah, yeah.

Ed (00:26:34) - So this is why I doubt they'll ever I mean, I think, I think we're going to get some reregulation that I think probably won't be that strict, but I doubt that that will ever they'll never have the guts to use it to promote which they should. Yeah. Because they, they have to officially say it's wrong. Right? Right. They have to. That's the official thing. Even if it's on every tree corner.

Greg (00:26:55) - That's anathema to their well established official position.

Ed (00:26:59) - Yeah, yeah, it drives me crazy.

Stuart (00:27:00) - I mean, when I was on Khao San the other day, because they've got the new shiny police station on the corner and everything, and there's a dude selling pot right out front for sure.

Greg (00:27:08) - No, no, no.

Stuart (00:27:12) - Well, that's how it used to be by the cop, you know? That's right. no.

Greg (00:27:16) - It's everywhere.

Ed (00:27:16) - Especially around Khao San. It's all over the place. Yeah. and unfortunately, a lot of it is illegally imported.

Ed (00:27:22) - Unfortunately.

Stuart (00:27:23) - Yeah.

Greg (00:27:23) - Well, as, as we're wrapping up here, I want to talk a little bit about media, and, and how this is affecting tourism and how people perceive and think of things in places. another, another patron I was talking to on, on discord, PKK. Vuk, I don't know their real names, but we've got Corporal Zoff and VK Vuk. he said, can you ask Stu what he thinks about the proliferation of shocking slash boring YouTubers? Oh my God, Bangkok is so modern and westernized. Oh my God, it's so. Cheap here. Or the millionth take on Sukhumvit, the millionth take on the Siam shopping area. I just saw a thumbnail for one along the lines of. We just thought Bangkok was a place of history and temples like, you know, it's just so many videos and the overexposure in media is crazy because everyone's got a phone. That means everyone is able to take pretty good looking HD videos and upload it to the entire planet. Yeah.

Ed (00:28:16) - Well, you're saying they're pimping.

Ed (00:28:17) - So that question is about like pimping the shopping malls, is what you're saying. Not specifically.

Greg (00:28:21) - No. It's just it's just that, like like Ed and I have talked a lot about this, like, we're old school audio radio guys. We don't have a YouTube channel. And it seems that there's so many YouTube channels about let's, let's say Bangkok are just basically here's me at a market, here's me at a shopping mall, here's me at a massage place. But they're not really getting digging deeper than that. And there are exceptions, of course, like Pat Bangkok, Pat, he does some really good sort of investigative historical videos on on Bangkok. And there's, there's several other channels, but it seems that the majority of them are just a guy walking around with a video camera, and they're not really doing it any any favors.

Stuart (00:29:00) - I think there's nothing you can do about it. I mean, you don't have to watch it. Yeah. For starters, I mean, it's like the outrage machine and it's like, yeah.

Stuart (00:29:10) - And you know, what's what's the big deal? but I think for people coming and. And making like naff videos about me doing whatever, you know. I mean, you can't expect a lot of nuance and depth when they only got off the plane the previous day. So I think it's unfair to sort of say this is vacuous and pointless.

Greg (00:29:35) - I guess the onus is on the consumer to like, if I'm looking to research a place and want some deep historical insights, I'm not going to look at, you know, smiley guy 99.

Stuart (00:29:46) - A couple of weeks ago, a travel writer got in touch with me and was asking about, how the work, sustainable tourism stuff better into their travel writing. So I said I used as an example, I was talking about coconut and I said, well, you could talk about slavery in the fishing industry, which is a huge problem in Thailand. And so maybe tell people they shouldn't have a seafood barbecue, right, as an example.

Stuart (00:30:14) - And then she said, well, what about the pork? And I'm like, well, I don't know about the pork, you know. And so like that kind of thing becomes really difficult. But then they also said, but how do you know all this stuff? And I said, well, I've been in the region for 30 years, right. Reading and writing about it. You know, if someone has just got off the boat, you can't expect them to know you. I think it's a bit cheeky to expect a lot more than a fairly vacuous video of me in the back of a tuk tuk, because everybody has been that person. Yeah, you know, I certainly wasn't the Christ. There was no social media when I was 21.

Ed (00:30:48) - Right, right, right. You know.

Stuart (00:30:51) - I think it would be nice for people to perhaps think before they post something occasionally, like, does the internet really need this video or photo? Even even if you still do? Like I upload a lot of loads of garbage, you know? I'm thinking about that kind of thing, but I think it's also for travellers to think about, well, doing something a bit different, you know, not doing the stuff that has already been done to death.

Stuart (00:31:19) - Like who needs another guy to a luxury hotel on Sukhumvit, you know, go find me a family run home. Stay in Nakhon Nowhere. Right. I'll watch that. Right. You know, and like, just doing more interesting things. and, you know, with a sustainable tourism kind of, like the guy said, you know, just thinking about this stuff, like, to.

Ed (00:31:40) - Me, that stuff, it's almost really more about the ego of the person. It's like they think they actually think they're doing something special, even though they are the 10,000th person to do it. It's like, look at me on Sukhumvit. It's like I.

Greg (00:31:51) - Discovered this market.

Ed (00:31:54) - I mean, in a way, I guess you can't blame them in the sense that for them it is special. But. But then they're sending it out to the world, to millions of people.

Greg (00:32:01) - And there's nothing wrong with it making that video more power to them if that's something that their friends and family watch, that's great.

Greg (00:32:05) - But I think there's so much of it out there, it's hard to to know where to get real, sort of nuanced.

Stuart (00:32:12) - The information overload is like that. That's not going to go away. And you've got AI coming and that's just going to put it on steroids. So, you know, it's like.

Greg (00:32:21) - The guy that send us an email and he asked us if he wanted to have him on as a guest to talk about what it's like dating Thai women.

Stuart (00:32:26) - Oh, jeez.

Ed (00:32:28) - sorry. Sorry, dude, we got that covered that's totally covered.

Greg (00:32:35) - Well, Stu, I don't want to take up too much of your time. thanks so much, man. It's been really interesting sitting down. Good to see you again.

Stuart (00:32:41) - Always good to catch up.

Greg (00:32:42) - Where can people find out more of, Stu Inc?

Stuart (00:32:48) - Like, keep running away from social media. So I'm not on Twitter anymore. I'm very active on LinkedIn. if you just search LinkedIn, you'll find me, Threads and Mastodon a little bit, but not a lot. I'm nowhere near as much on.

Ed (00:33:02) - So are you on Instagram? Yeah.

Stuart (00:33:04) - Yeah. Travelfishery. Yeah.

Greg (00:33:06) - And travelfish.org

Stuart (00:33:08) - That's the main site. Right.

Greg (00:33:09) - And your newsletter of course is. Yeah. It is really, really well done. Always some interesting information in there. So if you're not subscribed subscribe.

Ed (00:33:17) - Heck yeah yeah yeah.

Greg (00:33:18) - All right Stu thank you sir. Good to sit down very much.

Stuart (00:33:21) - Thank you to see you soon.

Ed (00:33:31) - Man, you and I have talked before about these repeating problems in Thailand and this this issue of high quality tourist just will not go away. I feel like I feel like ten years ago, the pursuit of high quality tourists was thoroughly debunked. I feel like it's just an old idea that's just been debunked and hammered into the ground is like a bad strategy. And then every year, like the tat, they talk about high quality tourists again.

Ed (00:33:59) - Like, what is the obsession? It's like a it's a bizarre obsession with high quality tourists.

Greg (00:34:04) - Yeah. They just sort of assume that someone has they got a lot of money. They're going to land in Thailand and start just like making it rain. But in reality they sort of, you know, they they high quality tourists tend to stay in their own little bubble. But yeah.

Ed (00:34:16) - no, I learned a lot. I mean, I knew I knew some of, I knew some of what Stu mentioned, but I learned a lot, you know, this whole idea of, like, leakage and, like, money. Just because money spent in Thailand, it doesn't mean Thai people are benefiting. I was pretty ignorant about that. I didn't know the details about it. So that. That's interesting stuff.

Greg (00:34:33) - Right? Right. And it's just I mean, you know, backpackers get a little bit of a short shrift because, you know, if you've spent any time down in Khao San Road, let's face it, if you're wearing like some, some skanky Chong singlet and a pair of old dirty flip flops with dreadlocks down to the middle of your back, you're probably not going to, you know, drum up the image of like, you know, spending a lot of money or supporting the local economy.

Greg (00:34:56) - But the fact is that those those people do, they travel slower, they travel longer, and they travel closer to the local community. So they actually have long term benefits.

Ed (00:35:05) - So and then as we talked about those are those are the people who become listeners of the Bangkok Podcast. And they end up moving here and living here for 20 years.

Greg (00:35:13) - Supporting the country and buying weed, which is another thing that Stu talked about. It's so funny to to hear him sort of like his mind is just like the amount of weed stores here is crazy.

Ed (00:35:24) - I mean, it still hasn't panned out. I mean, that's a different topic, but you and I keep waiting to do another show on weed when whenever something gets resolved and then nothing gets resolved. So we haven't we haven't done a show on it in a while.

Greg (00:35:36) - Yeah. That's right. And also many thanks to some of our patrons who sent some questions in for Stu. So we go to those as well. But always great to sit down with Stuart.

Greg (00:35:43) - Very cool guy. And again, if you haven't already subscribed to the Travel Fish newsletter, get over to his website and subscribe. Because every week it's got some really good links with stories all around the region, and you'll get caught up and be smart like me and Ed here.

Ed (00:35:56) - Definitely. No doubt about that.

Greg (00:35:58) - All right, let's check in with our new segment called Idiom Proof, where we try to learn a little bit more about Thai culture by investigating one of the many funny and creative Thai idioms that we've come across to help us with the correct pronunciation. We've asked our friend Bank to read it for us first and then we will discuss it. Take it away bank.

Speaker 9 (00:36:15) - Kulap Rim Tang.

Greg (00:36:20) - So I'm going to try and copy bank here. Kulap Rim Tang a rose on the edge of the path which is slang for prostitute. Are you.

Ed (00:36:29) - Sure? Maybe. Maybe it just means good landscaping.

Greg (00:36:32) - I mean, rose on the edge of the path. What what what could that possibly mean other than beauty?

Ed (00:36:36) - And it could be just good landscaping.

Ed (00:36:38) - Who knows?

Greg (00:36:40) - Kulap Rim Tang arose on the edge of the path. She's a prostitute. That's an interesting one.

Ed (00:36:45) - I like it, but I got to admit, I feel like there was a lot of Thai idioms that relates to relate to prostitutes. There's a lot of metaphors and nicknames Thai people have for prostitutes.

Greg (00:36:55) - I got to say, I ever since my first days learning Thai, I've always thought that the Thai is designed to trip up Westerners, because when we say the right word the wrong way, more often than not it seems to default to something filthy or embarrassing.

Ed (00:37:09) - Agreed. Yeah, mispronouncing stuff is is a dangerous path in the world of Thai. But anyway, let this, let this idiom be a warning to you gentlemen out there. If you want to compliment your Thai girlfriend, do do not call her a rose on the edge of the path. Don't. That's right. Hold off on that.

Greg (00:37:28) - A rose on the edge of the path is a prostitute. It's actually. I mean, it's a lovely sounding.

Greg (00:37:32) - Do we have anything in English like that? Like that sounds lovely.

Ed (00:37:37) - I don't think we do. I like not.

Greg (00:37:40) - Streetwalker lady of the night. Yeah, those are nice.

Ed (00:37:45) - Yeah I don't.

Ed (00:37:47) - So the danger with this is it sounds like a compliment, but I'm guessing most, most Thai women would not take it as a compliment.

Greg (00:37:54) - Probably not. You know what I also learned years and years ago is the phrase, golden flower.

Ed (00:38:00) - Geez, dude. What what what have you been watching Doc Tong?

Greg (00:38:04) - It basically means the same thing. It means means slut. So I remember. There you go, I called, I called my ex-girlfriend. I called her like my my golden girl or something like that. Or I was making a joke about the Golden Girls, and she's like, oh, be careful. You want to call me a golden flower?

Greg (00:38:18) - It's a minefield.

Ed (00:38:19) - Thai language is a minefield. No doubt about that.

Greg (00:38:22) - There you go, Rose on the edge of the path.

Greg (00:38:23) - Thanks, bank, and I will be sure not to use that going forward. Yes.

Ed (00:38:27) - Thank you. Bank. Alrighty. A final thanks to all of our patrons who support the show. Patrons get a ton of cool perks and the warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that they're helping and are never ending. Quest for cool content? Find out more by clicking support on our website and connect with us online. Where Bangkok podcasts on social media Bangkok podcast. Com on the web or simply Bangkok Podcast at gmail.com. We love hearing from our listeners and always reply to our messages.

Greg (00:38:57) - Yeah, maybe you can also listen to each episode on YouTube. You can send us a voicemail through our website that will feature on the show. Hit me up on threads at BC. Greg. Thanks for listening everyone. Stay cool and we'll see you back here next week. No doubt.